Listening with opamps, rolling on SM-3

Printed from: Xin's Cool Talk
Topic URL: http://www.fixup.net/talk/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=731
Printed on: 05/20/2013

Topic:

Topic author: zchhaanog
Subject: Listening with opamps, rolling on SM-3
Posted on: 04/13/2005 13:16:38
Message:

Today, I once again plugged NE5534 (model SE5534AN, the best). What happens to the sounding! It's amazing, it's unbelievable! The sound stage is even wider than OPA627. So sweet sound!

Bass, the lows, larger amount of bass than 627, while less deep (edit: deep means extreme lows) than 627, also a little slower than 627 -- just that good for music.

extreme heights, might be less than 627.

mid-high, so beautiful sounding, wider-wider-wider, airy, relax, loose, the same or even more details as/than 627£¬over all, the outstanding comfortable listening experience is with NE5534.

Totally black background.


That's the impression. I'll spend more time with 5534, i believe :)


zc

Replies:

Reply author: zchhaanog
Replied on: 04/13/2005 13:19:58
Message:

Mine has been burnt in for nearly 100 hours.

Reply author: alanz
Replied on: 04/13/2005 16:31:05
Message:

My amp came with an NE5534P installed, but Xin tossed in a set of SA5534AP chips into the bag.
Anyone know the differences between these two 5534 variants?

I've got 627 and 227 chips also ready for testing after the burn in period... so many choices!

Reply author: Xin
Replied on: 04/13/2005 17:42:20
Message:

NE5534P: Max noise level is not guarranteed.
NE5534AP: Guarranteed (the "A").
SA5534AP: Industrial temperature range.

Reply author: alanz
Replied on: 04/13/2005 18:07:18
Message:

So should there be any difference in sound between the NE5534P and the SA5534AP? Has anyone compared the two? Do I assume that you chose the NE5534P as your default for some reason?

Reply author: zchhaanog
Replied on: 04/13/2005 20:06:09
Message:

quote:

---

Originally posted by alanz

So should there be any difference in sound between the NE5534P and the SA5534AP? Has anyone compared the two? Do I assume that you chose the NE5534P as your default for some reason?

---

Reply author: grawk
Replied on: 04/15/2005 11:28:33
Message:

I only have the V1, but I've tried the 8610, 627, and 604s. For the music I listen to (pretty much everything but classical), I REALLY like the 604s with my beyer 770s. A real kick in the shorts.

Reply author: goto2003
Replied on: 04/15/2005 15:29:18
Message:

NE5534AP sounds fuller than all other chips I have tried. Its bass is kind of blown, not as lean and fast as AD8610, or not as puchy as OP627; but sounds very comfortable when listening to classical. Probaly due to its "overblown" bass, the soundstage is huge but tend to be flat and not as deep as OP627.

Reply author: zchhaanog
Replied on: 04/15/2005 18:54:42
Message:

quote:

---

Originally posted by goto2003

NE5534AP sounds fuller than all other chips I have tried. Its bass is kind of blown, not as lean and fast as AD8610, or not as puchy as OP627; but sounds very comfortable when listening to classical. Probaly due to its "overblown" bass, the soundstage is huge but tend to be flat and not as deep as OP627.

---

Reply author: zchhaanog
Replied on: 04/15/2005 19:07:27
Message:

quote:

---

Originally posted by grawk

I only have the V1, but I've tried the 8610, 627, and 604s. For the music I listen to (pretty much everything but classical), I REALLY like the 604s with my beyer 770s. A real kick in the shorts.

---

Reply author: zxkaw
Replied on: 04/16/2005 07:15:17
Message:

I have 637s im my M3 and they sound great great low detailed punchy bass, smooth mids and nice highs. I only have about 4 hours at most played on amp so expect sweeter sound as time goes on. Last night i was listening to jean luc ponty and the sound started getting sweeter sounding

Reply author: vic212
Replied on: 04/17/2005 15:55:29
Message:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Xin

NE5534P: Max noise level is not guarranteed.
NE5534AP: Guarranteed (the "A").
SA5534AP: Industrial temperature range.

---

Reply author: Xin
Replied on: 04/18/2005 18:10:02
Message:

I can't say, Vic.

Reply author: zchhaanog
Replied on: 04/21/2005 09:22:44
Message:

Hi vic,

I saw somewhere in the forum, Xin seems to suggest get one with A, i.e. SE5534A..., SA5534A..., NE5534A...

BTW, SE has the best power consumption performance(means longer battery time), and SE/SA has the lower Input Noise Current and Input Noise Voltage, etc... Over all SExxx is the best you can get. (not from TI, but from HongKong? see http://www.onsemi.com/)

That's all.


zc

Reply author: vic212
Replied on: 04/23/2005 10:01:08
Message:

Great!
I see!
zchhaanog
Thank you for your suggestion!
I really want to receive SM3 asap !!

Reply author: shan
Replied on: 04/28/2005 02:23:28
Message:

quote:

---

Originally posted by zchhaanog

Hi vic,

I saw somewhere in the forum, Xin seems to suggest get one with A, i.e. SE5534A..., SA5534A..., NE5534A...

BTW, SE has the best power consumption performance(means longer battery time), and SE/SA has the lower Input Noise Current and Input Noise Voltage, etc... Over all SExxx is the best you can get. (not from TI, but from HongKong? see http://www.onsemi.com/)

That's all.


zc

---

Reply author: zchhaanog
Replied on: 04/28/2005 12:23:32
Message:

Shan,

There could be a different experience. The rigs used in my report are ER4P + s-converter cable + SM impedance on + bass boost on, source are computer ape files, indigo io. The opamp are SE5534ANs. And it was burned-in for considerable hours (both the opamp and the big caps, etc).

What kind of music you were listening?

Thanks for sharing. Enjoy the goodies!

I am now partnering with opa604 to see if i could find something.

For me, the 3 having at least one outstanding specialty opamps are: NE5534, OPA627, AD8610.


zc

Reply author: slwiser
Replied on: 04/29/2005 05:28:48
Message:

I just realized something this morning concerning rolling opamps. This is a really brilliant philosophy. What we are getting is the ability to shape the sound to our pleasure without having the added circuitry of the equalization process which inherently degrades the primary signal. Actually it is more than simple equalization, it is sound shaping which includes other things beyound equalization.

If everyone else has already observed this then just let me get by with re-stating the obvious.

I can see a market for a new Home Amp now. One that allows changing opamps with a digital signal so that the manual operation is not longer required. This amp would be marketed as having equalization without the added circuitry that degrades the music signal. Wonder if this is being done now? Acutally, thinking as I write this, tube amps allow us to do this now by simply having their tubes in the open.

Just a thought.

Steve

Reply author: jayray999
Replied on: 04/29/2005 10:02:55
Message:

As I had mentioned in the following thread http://www.fixup.net/talk/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=760 I love the OPA604. With so many people praising the 627/637 and 8610 I developed doubts. So I got the Accutek sockets and soldered after 15 years gap. Then I plugged in expecting to be blown away. But I was not. I love the edge to the OPA604. This edge is the reason I called it the "original instruments OPAMP." The 8610 is nice but no match for the OPA604. Since I had opened the case I decided to roll a few more and tried the OPA228, the OPA627BP and the SA5534AN.

I am really impressed with the OPA228. If all OPA604s died and I had to choose a replacement I would go with the OPA228. Then I would pick the OPA627. The SA5534AN had a noticeable hiss at medium volume levels so I plan to stay away. The NE5534 that came with the SM-3 had no such problem.

Anyway, I don't think I am opening my SM-3 for a while. OPA604 I am all yours.

See my efforts at soldering below. IF YOU SOLDER, DO IT AWAY FROM KIDS SINCE IT HAS A LOT OF LEAD IN IT.

Reply author: Xin
Replied on: 04/29/2005 14:01:04
Message:

Nice soldering work, especially considering that you have not done such things in 15 years.

The adapter looks very good too, exactly what I wanted. I'll be ordering some right way. I love its thick and short traces.

SA5534AN gave you some hiss? Hard for me to explain about this.

AD8610 has a led free version, but of course the solder has the most led.

Reply author: zchhaanog
Replied on: 04/29/2005 23:03:29
Message:

jayray, what a nice macro shoot and thanks to your macro lens. As for the soldering work, am I safe to say "the old gun is back" ?


zc

Reply author: jayray999
Replied on: 04/30/2005 09:06:57
Message:

Thanks Dr. Xin and zchaanoq. My soldering is purely functional and as I mentioned my skills are rusty. I don't think my soldering will improve much since I have no reason to solder any more (unless Dr. Xin comes out with an easy mod to improve the H-120's LINE-OUT). However I take photography very seriously even though I have just started this hobby and have a long, long way to go. Maybe one day even alanz will pay me a compliment for the pictures I take.

Reply author: zchhaanog
Replied on: 04/30/2005 09:39:24
Message:

What about this picture

edit: refresh a few times if not shown.



My sweet 8610s

Reply author: jayray999
Replied on: 04/30/2005 09:52:27
Message:

Oops zchaanoq, I think your link is bad.

Reply author: jayray999
Replied on: 04/30/2005 10:09:54
Message:

quote:

---

Originally posted by zchhaanog

What about this picture

---

Reply author: zchhaanog
Replied on: 04/30/2005 10:45:13
Message:

quote:

---

Originally posted by jayray999

quote:

---

Originally posted by zchhaanog

What about this picture

---

Nice. Did you solder yourself?

---

Reply author: jamato8
Replied on: 05/01/2005 14:52:43
Message:

Here is a pair of 4061 opamps that I mounted to some adapters that I made up. Almost no signal path and the corner connections are by 30 guage high purity silver. These opamps sound very, very good. Too much coffee when I did the solering this morning but I got it done (with coffee my hands shake and I can't get the nice clean solder connection with little solder). Opamps shown mounted in the sockets of a V3.





I took these a part and resoldered them after these shots. The sound isn't likely affected but I just needed something neater. I don't like solder all over the place but I also notice my eyes just aren't what they used to be, but many things are changing. :^)

Reply author: Wombat_VC
Replied on: 05/02/2005 08:54:06
Message:

Has anyone here compared AD8610 to OPA604AP in terms of instrument clarity, voice tonality, soundstaging and ease of listening?

I just put in a pair of OPA604AP into my SM3 and like soundstage width and depth, but at zero hour burn-in, it sounds a tiny bit too grainy for me.

I was trying out a pair of OPA627AP just before the 604 but didn't like it. Through my Senn HD600 (Equinox cable), bass is fantastic, everything is clear and grain-free, but the music sounds like it is played along a narrow corridor.

Reply author: jayray999
Replied on: 05/02/2005 09:10:03
Message:

I have. Admittedly I did not use the AD8610 long enough but I am sold on the OPA604. I don't like the term "grainy"; I prefer to say it has an edge or that it bites! That it certainly does and it is perfect for my purposes. I listen mostly to classical music and I am a big fan of the original instruments movement where they acquire or construct instruments to match their centuries old predecessors. A big reason for doing this is exactly what the AD8610 and OPA604 do i.e. note clarity and voice differentiation in choruses etc. I would not switch out the OPA604 for any of the current crop since it has that "every note is precious" quality that (in my opinion) the big name OPAMPS like the OPA627/637 and LM6171 lack. I have a thread going on the greatness of OPA604 for my purposes (http://www.fixup.net/talk/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=760) and a few other fans of this great OPAMP have posted there. You should check it out. Regarding the AD8610 it seems to do a bit less of the same thing that the OPA604 does so I thought why not use the one that does the best. One OPAMP that took me by surprise was the OPA228 (or OPA227) but as things stands I am burning in my OPA604 day and night so I can use it for a long time to come. Maybe if I were a rock'n'roll or metal guy I would go for another OPAMP since I would miss the bass especially on my ER-4S but I just do not care that much for thumping drums because even in orchestral music they are subdued. Incidentally my earlier comparison was done with all chips brand new so the OPA604 had no burn-in advantage.

Reply author: HiFlight
Replied on: 05/02/2005 18:03:14
Message:

Jayray...

We think about exactly alike on the opamp! For use with my UM2s, it is the 604. With my Etys, the 228 works very well. I find that the 228 and 604 both have very nice soundstages and imaging. I do believe that the 228 better simulates the high-frequency rolloff that is characteristic of concert-hall environments. Perhaps fuller low-frequencies would be stating it more accurately than high-freq. rolloff. I have seen frequency response curves of about a dozen noted concert halls, and all have exhibited this type of response curve.

Ron Kerlin
Ft Myers, FL, USA
SuperMacro, Cosmic Headroom, PortaCordaII, ER4S, ER4P, ER6i, EM3, UM2, AH-D6, HD650, AKG501, KSC-35

Reply author: Wombat_VC
Replied on: 05/02/2005 18:45:52
Message:

Thanks guys for the wonderful insights. My last pair of opamps yet to be tried is the OPA227P, but since I listen mainly to jazz, I'm not sure if the 227 top-end roll-off is good for me. I'm also a bit reluctant to keep openning up the amp again and again. But if someone tells me that 227 has less "edge" or "bite" than 604, I'll take the plunge.

Jayray,

You mentioned AD604. Can you tell us more about its sound? From the Analog Devices website, AD604 seems to be a 24-pin dual-channel amp. Is that the right AD604?

Reply author: jayray999
Replied on: 05/02/2005 22:52:32
Message:

Wombat: Oops that was a typo. At all places I meant OPA604AP from TI. There is only one that is 8 pin PDIP. Sorry for the confusion. I edited the post and fixed it.

HiFlight: I am glad to find a kindred soul. I am impressed at the lengths you have gone to compare response curves. Reading your reviews makes me want to get UM2s to try but I must hold off on new purchases. Presently the 604-SM3 combination has me completely satisfied.

Reply author: Wombat_VC
Replied on: 05/05/2005 08:34:15
Message:

After clocking more than 80 hours, the OPA604 in my SM3 no longer sound "rough", "edgy" or "grainy". While I still won't call it smooth, the highs are now very well defined and realistic, while the bass is as tight as day 1, much tighter than the NE5534. The soundstaging is superb. I now understand why jayray999 and HiFlight like the 604 so much.

Makes me wonder why Headroom replaces the 604 with the 627 in their high-end models. It is true that 627 is far smoother and sound more "luxurious", but I'm constantly reminded that my headphones are clamped onto my head. Perhaps I need to give the 627 80 hours as well, just perhaps...

Now, something of a joke has just come to my mind. This is purely a speculation on my part, and I have no proof to substantiate what I'm about to say. Remember, I intend this to be humourous, so please don't flame me. I read that Ray Samuels' SR-71 has its opamps blanked out, so no one knows what exactly they are. Also, everyone seems to agree that the SR-71 has very good soundstaging. Maybe, just maybe, those nail-polished parts are 604s, and Ray doesn't want us to know that his $400 amp uses $3 opamps instead of the $20 627s.

Reply author: gchang
Replied on: 05/05/2005 10:24:16
Message:

I think, too that a lot of the qualitative evaluation is relative to the headphones that you use.

Many headphones (and speakers, for that matter) that advertise extended bandwidth have a more distant soundstage - sort of a "smile" frequency response. When I am listening to my HD650s (which I think fall into the "smile" catagory), it is really dramatic how the 627s add detail, but they sound mushy compared to 637s, which sounded harsh before the SM3 was broken in. The 604, on the other hand, seems to have that "edge" that the 637s exhibits extending even further into the midrange. This very much helps the HD650s, giving them much better presence and imaging. I think that if I weren't using the headphones that I have (ER-4P, HD650), I might not have liked the "edge" as much. Who knows?

When all is said and done, I have put my bag of chips in a drawer and have settled on the 604s. Rolling has been fun - kinda like being shot at! - It's really quite exciting until something breaks....

Reply author: jayray999
Replied on: 05/05/2005 10:58:37
Message:

Does anyone else have the experience that the SM-3 starts sounding MUCH better as the day progresses. This is especially evident to me if I listen to it for two streches in the morning with a break in between. I don't know if this is something electronic or psychological but to me it is very evident. I am using OPA604 with SM-3 Impedance switch ON. Both sessions are with the AC adapter AND batteries fully charged from overnight.

Reply author: jayray999
Replied on: 05/05/2005 11:31:39
Message:

quote:

---

Originally posted by gchang

When all is said and done, I have put my bag of chips in a drawer and have settled on the 604s.

---

Reply author: HiFlight
Replied on: 05/05/2005 13:47:19
Message:

Excellent idea, Jayray, EXCEPT that as more and more people discover and request the 604, the supply will diminish and the price will increase until the 604s are worth more than gold! Can you imagine the ebay bidding war on the last 2 OPA604 opamps????

Maybe I should order a couple thousand on speculation of their increase in value!




Ron Kerlin
Ft Myers, FL, USA
SuperMacro, Cosmic Headroom, PortaCordaII, ER4S, ER4P, ER6i, EM3, UM2, AH-D6, HD650, AKG501, KSC-35

Reply author: jayray999
Replied on: 05/05/2005 13:48:16
Message:

I am hoarding, starting NOW!

Reply author: goto2003
Replied on: 05/05/2005 17:50:46
Message:

Thank you guys for sharing your hands-on experience with OP604. I would have to second to your claims on OP604's sound quality. What I am interested to find out is the AD797. One SM3 owner claimed that AD797 sound better than OPA637 after SM3's burn-in for quite some margin. My AD797s' on their way here and I can't wait to see how they stack against OP627/637/604.

Reply author: gchang
Replied on: 05/05/2005 21:45:28
Message:

quote:

---

Originally posted by jayray999

Does anyone else have the experience that the SM-3 starts sounding MUCH better as the day progresses. This is especially evident to me if I listen to it for two streches in the morning with a break in between. I don't know if this is something electronic or psychological but to me it is very evident. I am using OPA604 with SM-3 Impedance switch ON. Both sessions are with the AC adapter AND batteries fully charged from overnight.

---

Reply author: goto2003
Replied on: 05/05/2005 23:22:40
Message:

To me, SM3 sounds better and better, which is really amazing! However, I am not 100% if it's improving every single second given I am not so sure about my memory on how SM3 sounded when I got it. What I really know is SM3 NOW, after 350hours, sounds so fantastic!

Reply author: Xin
Replied on: 05/06/2005 00:03:31
Message:

The AD797 in SM-3 sounds the fullest among all other opamps I've tried so far. It is contrary to OPA604's super clean and clear image. The sound is truly heart breaking type, lots of energy.

Reply author: goto2003
Replied on: 05/06/2005 00:14:49
Message:

Mine AD797's will come in few days. Another SM3 owner's strongly recommended these chips to me as he has fallen in love with them, claiming AD797's have more detail, punchier low and more fluid high than OPA637's.

Reply author: goto2003
Replied on: 05/06/2005 08:09:14
Message:

I got a pair of AD797ANZ this morning and their sound in SM3 is really mind-blowing! So beautiful, black, black background, neutral, detailed, punchy bass, liquid mid and extremely smooth high. How can one miss this gem for their SM3. BTW, make sure SM3 have >200hrs burn-in before making a conclusion on AD797.

Reply author: Wombat_VC
Replied on: 05/06/2005 08:34:18
Message:

How's the soundstaging like?

Reply author: goto2003
Replied on: 05/06/2005 08:43:16
Message:

Big big soundstage! Not as sharp as OPA604, but better than AD8610, IMHO.

Reply author: gchang
Replied on: 05/06/2005 09:57:26
Message:

quote:

---

Originally posted by goto2003

I got a pair of AD797ANZ this morning and their sound in SM3 is really mind-blowing! So beautiful, black, black background, neutral, detailed, punchy bass, liquid mid and extremely smooth high. How can one miss this gem for their SM3. BTW, make sure SM3 have >200hrs burn-in before making a conclusion on AD797.

---

Reply author: goto2003
Replied on: 05/06/2005 10:43:43
Message:

yes.

Reply author: slwiser
Replied on: 05/06/2005 13:02:00
Message:

Question ask before checking Details page. Sorry...

Do you know the power drain on these 797s? It may be very high? Just asking.

Power is used is a square function of the current drain, I think. Just to provide some relationship to how each opamp would drain the batteries. Of course, the Opamp is just one part of the total drain on the batteries. I wonder just what that part is?

Steve

Reply author: goto2003
Replied on: 05/06/2005 15:47:22
Message:

8.2ma, even higher than OPA637.

Reply author: jayray999
Replied on: 05/06/2005 21:31:30
Message:

AD797 is honey while OPA604 is like a great red wine not yet mellowed by its age. The uniqueness of OPA604 is most evident in the cello parts of a chamber music work. Maybe the AD8610 can approach OPA604's clarity in the treble range but when a cello rasps along on a OPA604 you can almost smell the trembling wood as if you were a human fly trapped inside the belly of the instrument. And this is using Etys! In contrast the same cello parts sound plush and luxuriant on most other OPAMPS. This plushness can be quite attractive -like a Perlman recording on a DECCA label- but I still prefer the rasp which makes the physicality of the performance more immediate for me. Incidentally the CD I used is an absolutely great performance, by the Mozartean Players, of Schubert's Piano Trio No. 2, Op. 100, in E-flat major. If you are new to classical music or to Schubert's music you cannot make a better start.

Sorry for making this yet another favorable 604 review but I am in love with this sound so cut me some slack. Some unbiased info to compensate: OPAMPS that will not run on the SM-3: OPA2111KP, OPA2132P, OPA2132PA unless my particular chips were bad.

Reply author: Wombat_VC
Replied on: 05/06/2005 21:37:37
Message:

Big big soundstage? Sounds great!

Dr Xin mentioned that AD797 is optimised for low input impedance (600 ohms or lower). Did anyone here try it out with different head/earphones to see if the AD797 sound character changed drastically with different loads?

I'm waiting for my AD797 to be shipped.

Reply author: Wombat_VC
Replied on: 05/06/2005 21:49:17
Message:

No worries, jayray. The beauty of SM3 is that everyone can have their best sound and we are all free to choose and re-choose what we prefer. We can go opamp-hopping forward and backward. My only worry is that the opamp sockets will wear out with repeated replacements. Hell, if money permits, I'll have a few SM3 with different opamps in them to suit different needs at different times!

Reply author: Xin
Replied on: 05/06/2005 23:09:02
Message:

The downside of AD797 is its power consumption, batteries run shorter than with OPA627, about 12-15 hours with 850mA NiMH. Even so, the battery life is still not bad at all, especially considering the 2x buffer (4 total) are al running at high current mode!

OPA2111 and 2132 are dual opamps; SM must use its single version (111, 132).

The sockets in SM have very short and big legs and are gold plated, very special and reliable. I don't think they'll wear out soon. JFYI. Be more carefull to the wires.

Reply author: goto2003
Replied on: 05/07/2005 06:20:44
Message:

quote:

---

Originally posted by jayray999

AD797 is honey while OPA604 is like a great red wine not yet mellowed by its age.

---

Reply author: HiFlight
Replied on: 05/08/2005 15:30:50
Message:

As I have accumulated considerably more listening time to both of my V3s, I decided to retry a couple of previously auditioned opamps. I find that now the OPA228 sounds really good, especially with my Etys. I am running the 604 in one SM, and the 228 in the other. Both sound good, a bit more detail and soundstage in the 604, a warmer, fuller sound with more bass in the 228. Very easy to listen to for long periods of time.

Very enjoyable to be able to listen to them side-by-side.

Ron Kerlin
Ft Myers, FL, USA
SuperMacro, Cosmic Headroom, PortaCordaII, ER4S, ER4P, ER6i, EM3, UM2, AH-D6, HD650, AKG501, KSC-35

Reply author: rblanco
Replied on: 05/09/2005 15:51:05
Message:

Sounds Great about the AD797ANZ

The specs on the Package say it is "PDIP 8"
so then you don't need a brown dog adapter for this OPAMP
to install into the SuperMacro?

Also which other Analog Devices OPAMP besides the AD8610 and
AD797ANZ are worth Sampling?

Thanks!

Reply author: goto2003
Replied on: 05/09/2005 15:57:37
Message:

AD825's.

Reply author: Xin
Replied on: 05/11/2005 02:04:18
Message:

For myself, I used to do the same thing that Jon did. Here is the AccuTek I just did:



I used a hot-air gun and solder paste. Easy to handle and very accurate (it self-centers). Also, you can use a hot-air gun to de-solder SMD components.

Reply author: Wombat_VC
Replied on: 05/12/2005 02:23:48
Message:

Are you selling these 2 in the picture? I want them!

* * * * *

Apple iPod (3G 40GB) -> Xin SuperMacro-3 -> Sennheiser HD600 (Equinox) or Shure E3c

Reply author: HiFlight
Replied on: 05/12/2005 09:18:25
Message:

Dr Xin...

Where was your source for the paste? is it silver or lead? Hi or Lo on the head gun? I was wondering how much margin there is between melting the solder and destroying the chip? I have never tried the heat gun, but have soldered quite a few surface mount devices.
Thanks for the info, and a beautiful job with the heat gun!

Ron Kerlin
Ft Myers, FL, USA
SuperMacros, Cosmic Headroom, PortaCordaII, ER4S, ER4P, ER6i, EM3, UM2, AH-D6, HD650, AKG501, B&O A8, KSC-35

Reply author: Xin
Replied on: 05/12/2005 22:52:45
Message:

All the AD8610 will have this AccuTek adapter. The only thing is: the leggs are not gold plated (the BrownDog is).

Ron, I bought the solder paste from Digikey. It is very expensive. I cannot say the type I use on public (I sure would love to tell you). Not special at all, any solder paste will be just fine. You cannot use a hair dryer, you must use a heat gun for heat-shrink tubes. Put the gun close enough to the chip, watch the solder paste, once they start melting, remove the gun in 3 seconds or so.

I could have made them in an oven, but for two or three pcs, heat gun is more handy.

Reply author: lexnasa
Replied on: 05/13/2005 03:12:22
Message:

A quick note in support of the SE5534AN. I've tried OPA604, OPA627, OPA227 and the SE5534AN for me comes out on top. My SM3 HAS 200 hours burn in, and I let the op amps burn in for a further 48 hours each. For me, the OPA627 sounds flashy and overblown, although it is exciting, it is also somehow rather artificial sounding. The SE5534AN is slightly rolled off at the top and bottom ends compared with the OPA627, but the midrange is much more expressive, the background more black, the soundstage more tangible, and the music sounds better integrated overall... it really sounds wonderful through my iPod>Pocket Dock>Cable Pro Earcandy>CD3000s. I think the choice of headphone is critical to these op amp tests, I'm sure if I had the HD650s the OPA604s would start to sound a whole lot better.

Reply author: jayray999
Replied on: 05/13/2005 03:58:33
Message:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Xin

You cannot use a hair dryer, you must use a heat gun for heat-shrink tubes. Put the gun close enough to the chip, watch the solder paste, once they start melting, remove the gun in 3 seconds or so.

---

Reply author: HiFlight
Replied on: 05/13/2005 06:06:04
Message:

Jayray...

My heatgun is a Milwaukee Model 1220. It has Hi and Lo heat. Will quickly remove paint. Very hot on Hi setting. I think I also still have some solder paste, so will give it a try using some old IC chips I have stored away.

Will post my results. Hope mine look as nice as Dr Xin's! I think few people have his expertise in soldering.

I once took a jewelry repair course and found that soldering gold jewelry was a challenge to keep from destroying what you were working on! Especially if it didn't belong to you!!!! We first practiced on brass rings of various sizes and thicknesses. Some heatgun practice with throwaway chips will be invaluable in learning the proper technique.


Ron Kerlin
Ft Myers, FL, USA
SuperMacros, Cosmic Headroom, PortaCordaII, ER4S, ER4P, ER6i, EM3, UM2, AH-D6, HD650, AKG501, B&O A8, KSC-35

Reply author: zchhaanog
Replied on: 05/13/2005 22:42:07
Message:

I'd like to report how cool AD797AR is!

The comparing is between op627, op637, op227, op604, ad8610, se5534an.

I would say it's another real SPECIAL opamp in my book, which can be summarized as:

1. The most black backgroud, the highest SNR level.

This is resulted from my test listening with my crappy (but beloved) sound-blaster front panel earphone output. The more noisy the source is, the more easily you can hear the difference. Even I tuned the sm3 volume to the largest, I could still say the background was black as was not with my other opamps. The sm3 input was connected to the earphone out during the test, no playback. The source output level and sm3 volume were fine tuned to match.

2. The outstanding 3D solid sound image performance. I'd like to say the image is superior accurate than all the other opamps' in the test.

So can I say I've found a treasure to stick with?

I used er4p/s-convert.



zc

Reply author: jamato8
Replied on: 05/15/2005 10:34:12
Message:

Try listening to the Analog Devices 744 opamp. Nice detail with a very nice open presentation to the music. I use the K series, which is a higher temp opamp but I also notice an improvement in sound in my power supply for my large dac when using the K series.

John

Reply author: shan
Replied on: 05/15/2005 13:28:15
Message:

I have tried many ops (included 744)
797 is the king

Reply author: lexnasa
Replied on: 05/17/2005 03:44:16
Message:

The AD797ANZ chips arrived today - wow! All the high, low end and speed of the OPA627, all the detail of the OPA604, warmer than the OPA627 but not as warm as the SE5534AN. Soundstage not as pinpoint accurate as the OPA604, but still very very good. The OPA604 and AD797 are both excellent, but like chalk and cheese... it's almost like the 604s have the classic Meridian cleanness, whilst the 797s are like the classic Marantz sound... sweet and very palatable. Gut feel tells me I may end up sticking with the 797s. Should I order another SM3 with 604s for choral and classical music, and the current one for everything else??? Decisions, decisions... isn't it nice to have the choice!

Reply author: lexnasa
Replied on: 05/17/2005 09:36:17
Message:

In a blink, a retraction, but a qualified one. The AD797 like the OPA627 suffers from HF gunk. The OPA604 manages to pull a gunk avoidance act, this may be due to it being technically inferior, but it works for me. I find the 797 is not as engaging, or as tonally accurate as the 604. My initial "wow" has become an "oh". This may also be due to the fact that I hate CDs, they have always sounded pretty wrong to me, I write and produce music, and 16 bit audio has it's easily identifiable limitations. Perhaps the 604 is masking what I hate (I have canine hearing). Or perhaps I should just shut up and enjoy it!

Reply author: jamato8
Replied on: 05/17/2005 14:53:25
Message:

I thought the same also untill I put the 797 back in and let it play music for 50 plus hours. I find that the edgy quality that I did not like is gone and the good qualities remain. I am glad much has been written here on the 797 or I would not have tried it again.

John

Reply author: lexnasa
Replied on: 05/17/2005 22:46:48
Message:

John, how would you describe the sound of the 797 now vs the 604? My initial feeling on the 797 was that the music didn't sound as well integrated as on the 604, but the 797 had only had a few hours of burn-in, I'd be interested in your views. Alan

Reply author: jamato8
Replied on: 05/18/2005 06:06:05
Message:

I haven't gone back to the 604 and I am off to work now. The 604 is very nice but the 797 seems more alive. Possibly more transparent and open. I am going by memory, which when it comes to sound isn't the best method. But I have not had a desire to return to any other opamp, which for me is very telling. I also compared the SR71 to the SM-3 with the 797 and now there is no question that the SM-3 outdistances the SR71 by quite a bit. No question at all (the difference was so obvious it surprised me).

John

Reply author: mavis
Replied on: 05/18/2005 06:23:09
Message:

Big thanks to everyone who recommended the AD797s ... I'd been using the OPA627s exclusively, and thought it couldn't get any better. But now, after only 30+ hours of burn in with the 797s (around 250 hrs total on the SM3) I am really liking the sound!! My Sony SA5000's are sounding really good right now!! :)

60GB iPod Photo / SuperMacro3 (AD797) / Sensaphonics 2X-S / Sony SA5000

Reply author: goto2003
Replied on: 05/18/2005 10:42:01
Message:

After +100 hrs listening on AD797's, I found they have a combination of good qualities of OPA627 (neutral), AD8610(sweet mid, open and detailed), and 227 (black background). Now I really want to try out the new output buffers, which, according to Dr. Xin, sound phenomenal with much better defined high and low.

Reply author: Miguel
Replied on: 05/19/2005 03:15:04
Message:

quote:

---

Now I really want to try out the new output buffers, which, according to Dr. Xin, sound phenomenal with much better defined high and low.

---

Reply author: goto2003
Replied on: 05/19/2005 09:38:40
Message:

Dr Xin mentioned it in this thread:

http://www.fixup.net/talk/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=834

Reply author: crazyfrenchman27
Replied on: 05/19/2005 21:47:44
Message:

Of the op amps I have tried thus far, AD797 seems to be king.

I have no idea why Xin doesn't make them standard. They are creating some awesome synergy with my MS-2i...

NE5534 sounds terrible to my ears, honestly. No comparison to the higher-end op amps.

Reply author: Miguel
Replied on: 05/20/2005 02:16:15
Message:

Well, I guess it depends on personal preferences and synergy with your current setup (source / cans). I received AD797 last week and I agree that it's a superb opamp it have several characteristics of other opamps which I like. Maybe with a different source and/or cans more on the dark side I would not like it.

I think Dr. Xin should go for a balanced choice as default opamp... AD797 is a nice option (dark, full, very low input noise, etc) but I think it is not balanced, as it is "too full" (lots of people loves cleaness of opamps like AD8610/20), dark and really power hungry. Just because of the last reason I would not include it as default. However, I would offer it as an option in the sales site, like the AD8610/OPA627 -stating briefly its main strong points when used with SM3-, or give them for free with new purchases, I think AD797 is not expensive.

Reply author: shan
Replied on: 05/20/2005 04:41:36
Message:

IMO,not because 797 is "too full"
it's because some headphones have too much mids & lows (e5c/k240m etc)
when use 797 with headphones such as sa5000,er4,dt880 & k240df.
the results will be perfect

I haven't tried 8610,but 843 sounds too bright with my er4b

Reply author: Xin
Replied on: 05/20/2005 18:48:23
Message:

I selected 5534 as default because it sounded the most relaxed. All other opamps have some kind of agressiveness on this or that. Also it works down to 6V, good for batteries.

I may take your suggestions to add AD797 as a free option. I still don't want to make it default because 850mAh batteries last for only 12 hours, slightly shorter than a full day. I want SM3 to last a whole day (15 hours): you turn it on in the morning, until you go to bed and plug the charger. If you use AD797, I recommend you use 1000mAh NiMH batteries which should last for 14 hours).

Reply author: gchang
Replied on: 05/21/2005 20:37:25
Message:

Phooey - I thought that I was done with this opamp rolling stuff, but I spent another round of it. Indeed, the combination of headphones and program plays heavily in the choice of which opamp is most desirable.

With Senn HD650s, listening to classical music, the 797 has its assets - very quiet - open - extended bandwidth, but not as clinical as the 8610, which in comparison seems to lack midrange detail - the weakpoint of the HD650 heaphones.

When listening to vocal music (jazz, comtemporary chamber music, alternative, etc.) I think that the 604 simply blows 797 away. The 797 is quieter, but when driven (a compressed mix played at volume), the 797 adds a "crispy" edge to the high frequency, which is very evident in the sibillance of a singer's voice. When listening to loud classical music program, that character adds a nice detail to the percussion and brass - but classical recordings do not have the amount of high frequency content that pop music mixes contain. The 604 is much smoother with the vocalist's sibilance while still providng more midrange detail. I verified this with both of my SM3s - they both exhibited this characteristic when using the 797.

I still very much prefer my older 637s to the 797 or the 627s, but for the cans that I listen to, the 604 is a similar but definite improvement over the 637 in the midrange detail.

Since I listen to a wide spectrum of musics, I guess that I have once again arrived at the same conclusion that I did a few weeks ago - the 604 is still the best all around choice for me and my HD650s.

It doesn't have the stunning silence of the 797, 637, 627, 8610s, but the 604 exhibits a musicality over a larger variety of music. And, they have great battery life....

So, now I will put my chips away and try to simply "use" and "enjoy" the SM3s instead of playing chess with Death by taking them apart every 10 minutes...!

Reply author: irvin
Replied on: 05/21/2005 23:09:27
Message:

Those of us who have played chess with death and lost (fortunately to be resurrected by Xin) rely on those of you with nimble fingers and golden ears to advise and keep the number of rematches to a minimum. At least it's not as dangerous as some of the activities being discussed on the UE10/bike thread.

Reply author: HiFlight
Replied on: 05/22/2005 06:25:32
Message:

gchang...

I agree with you regarding the qualities of the 604. I like it a lot with my HD650s and UM2s. A very close second is the AD744. You might wish to try it. Sort of a combination of 227 and 8610. Current requirement is about a third of that required by the 604.

I found I liked the 744 better than the 797. You are so correct when you say that the choice is very dependent on source, type of music, and phones.


Ron Kerlin
Ft Myers, FL, USA
SuperMacros, Cosmic Headroom, PortaCordaII, ER4S, ER4P, ER6i, EM3, UM2, AH-D6, HD650, AKG501, B&O A8, KSC-35

Reply author: slwiser
Replied on: 05/22/2005 09:34:32
Message:

Which 744s do you recommend, I see that there are several that can be used; i.e, 744knz, 744jn, 744jnz?

slwiser

Reply author: HiFlight
Replied on: 05/22/2005 10:36:57
Message:

Slwiser...

I got the AD samples AD744KNZ
The 797 samples were AD 797 ANZ

I am not sure what the difference between the A & the K series are. Probably temperature rating or some such thing. I doubt that there is much significance for our use in the SM.

At any rate, the AD 744 has a very nice soundstage and is quite well-balanced. Especially nice for vocal and instrumentals. I like the very low current drain.

Ron Kerlin
Ft Myers, FL, USA
SuperMacros, Cosmic Headroom, PortaCordaII, ER4S, ER4P, ER6i, EM3, UM2, AH-D6, HD650, AKG501, B&O A8, KSC-35

Reply author: jamato8
Replied on: 05/22/2005 10:56:43
Message:

The difference is the temp rating but for some reason I prefer the higher temp K opamp.

John

Reply author: Wombat_VC
Replied on: 05/23/2005 23:58:54
Message:

Put me in the OPA604 camp. My AD797 arrived on Saturday but by Monday, I had the OPA604 back inside my SM3.

The AD797 was smooth, very smooth. Soundstage was good, too. Highs and lows are well extended. However, it was a bit too thick for me. Not as thick as OPA627 (which seemed to have a narrower soundstage, but even smoother), but I prefer lots of air around every single note and crystal clear definition. OPA604 gives me that, without the brightness of the AD8610, much like listening to my speaker rig, which uses SACD as the main source.


* * * * *

Apple iPod (3G 40GB) -> Xin SuperMacro-3 (OPA604) -> Sennheiser HD600 (Equinox) or Shure E3c

Reply author: lexnasa
Replied on: 05/24/2005 07:37:11
Message:

Another vote for 604, even after extensive burn-in on 797s. The 797s sound like hi-fi, the 604s sound like you're not wearing headphones.

EAC>FAAC -w -q 275 --obj-type LC --tns>iPod Photo 60Gb>PocketDock>Earcandy>SM3 OPA604>CD3000/Prophonic 2XS

Reply author: jayray999
Replied on: 05/24/2005 09:13:14
Message:

Three cheers for OPA604.

Reply author: HiFlight
Replied on: 05/24/2005 13:10:28
Message:

I will have to say that after considering the 604 to be "it", I am now using the AD744 almost exclusively. It seems to render complex passages with many harmonics (snares, cymbals, etc) better than the 604. Similar sound to the 8610, but with less high-end brightness. Very natural and open sound. Give it a try!!!

Ron Kerlin
Ft Myers, FL, USA
SuperMacros, Cosmic Headroom, PortaCordaII, ER4S, ER4P, ER6i, EM3, UM2, AH-D6, HD650, AKG501, B&O A8, KSC-35

Reply author: HiFlight
Replied on: 05/24/2005 18:24:31
Message:

As a continuation to the above post, I am going to engage in a bit of speculation....only those interested in electronic theory need read further!!!

I particularly noticed that the sound of the AD744 was very good when using the SRS mode on my iRiver. Previously, I had not used that mode much, as the sound seemed to lose lower frequencies, exhibit poor imaging/spatiality, and not really sound like what SRS was designed to present to the listener.

Upon pondering why this should be, I am offering the following hypothesis.

In theory, given the specifications of all the opamps capable of being used in the SM, one would expect them to all sound identical, since the audio spectrum is only a fraction of what their rated bandwidths actually are.

Since it is obvious that all opamps DO NOT sound alike, the ability of the 744 to properly render SRS accurately without dilution of the lower frequencies led me to this hypothesis:

All opamps (plus the other components in an amp) create various amounts of inductance and capacitance. These are irrelevant in dc applications, but when considering complex AC waveforms, with all of their harmonics, such as is the case with music, these inductances and capacitances can greatly affect the PHASE of the waveforms, cancelling some, and re-inforcing others. After all, this is the basis of all the "Noise-cancellation" type headphones.

As SRS (and many of the other DSP modes) depend on specific amounts and types of phase changes, the opamp's ability to pass this frequency-dependent phasing accurately probably has more effect on sonic accuracy than any other characteristic of an opamp.

This characteristic of the device would also be the most difficult to measure when considering complex waveforms with their many harmonics and overtones, such as is the case with many types of music.

I am speculating that Dr Xin's amplifiers sound so remarkable because his designs result in less unwanted phase changes over the audible frequency range than do those of his competitors. The choice of opamp is, in my opinion, the greatest variable in accurate amplicfication without phase changes.

The opamps that amplify all frequencies in the musical spectrum with the least unwanted phase changes will sound the best. However, headphones, cables, etc can also change the phase of freqencies as well, so to some extent these other components can "make-up" for what the opamp degrades.

Regardless of how good the specifications are, unwanted phase changes will result in inaccurate or degraded sound, especially when using any type of DSP prccessing that is phase-relanted, rendering it anywhere from somewhat inaccurate to totally unlistenable. .

If there are any EE types who would like to either confirm or deny my speculations, or add their own opinions, I would welcome their comments.



Ron Kerlin
Ft Myers, FL, USA
SuperMacros, Cosmic Headroom, PortaCordaII, ER4S, ER4P, ER6i, EM3, UM2, AH-D6, HD650, AKG501, B&O A8, KSC-35

Reply author: Wombat_VC
Replied on: 05/24/2005 19:04:49
Message:

quote:

---

Originally posted by HiFlight

gchang...

I agree with you regarding the qualities of the 604. I like it a lot with my HD650s and UM2s. A very close second is the AD744. You might wish to try it. Sort of a combination of 227 and 8610. Current requirement is about a third of that required by the 604.

---

Reply author: HiFlight
Replied on: 05/24/2005 19:19:06
Message:

Wombat...

When I made that post, I had just gotten the 744s, and had not had a chance to listen to them side-by-side (604s in one V3, and 744s in the other V3.) while using different headphones and DSP modes.

I now consider the AD744 to be first on my preference list, not second to the 604 My reasons are the clarity of the more complex sounds (cymbals, brushes, snares, etc.) I would describe the sound as "open, airy, with tight bass.

It performs very well when using all of my dsp modes, better than any of the other opamps I have tried.

Sounds quite like the OPA227 but with clearer, more bell-like highs and a bit tighter bass, although the depth of the bass range is sounds about the same. Not as bright as the AD8610, but similar overall sound. The 604, which I had been using for quite awhile as my opamp of choice is now relegated to second place, mostly due to the sound of the higher frequencies in complex orchestral passages, and the sound of such instruments as cymbals, bells, etc.

Ron Kerlin
Ft Myers, FL, USA
SuperMacros, Cosmic Headroom, PortaCordaII, ER4S, ER4P, ER6i, EM3, UM2, AH-D6, HD650, AKG501, B&O A8, KSC-35

Reply author: Wombat_VC
Replied on: 05/24/2005 19:29:52
Message:

quote:

---

Originally posted by HiFlight

..... while using different headphones and DSP modes.

---

Reply author: gchang
Replied on: 05/24/2005 20:45:05
Message:

hiflight,

I think that your analysis of is pretty accurate, but I feel that something in addition must be said in light of this.

Digital is a complete compromise to phase - it is not less accurate as the frequency rises - ponder that at 44.1 khz, a 10 khz tone gets only four samples - symetrically taken across a waveform - not only is that a joke of a harmonic sine wave (four points linearly connected), but even in its inaccuracy, it totally aborts the phase of that sine wave. Most professional recording is now done at 96 khz - BFD. so now we have 8 samples per cycle. What happens to all of these crappy waveforms in order for them to play back as sine waves? This is left up our own personal playback system, where analog filters (which introduce phase shift at the cutoff points) are used.

Then we talk about bit width, which is essentially volume. As a professional, I refused to convert to 16 bit audio - we can hear better than 16 bit resolution. When you commit the quietest parts of the music to 4 bits or less of resolution, you get a lot of muting (silence) and dithering (noise) to cover up the muting. 24 bit playback offers a practical solution, but it exists only in professional environments.

I bring this up because I feel that I need to ground of discussion a bit - this isn't about accuracy. No offense to Dr. Xin, but if it were talking about accuracy, we wouldn't be talking about opamps, we would be talking about discrete component transistor circuits that wouldn't fit in you pocket. That is not a critcism of Dr. Xin's work in the least - he set out to make the best headphone amp, and I personally think that he succeeded. But the big compromise is portability and convenience. I am glad that Dr. Xin made those compromises - all of us enjoy it every day. So we are not talking about accuracy - we are talking about getting off on the music.

The least accurate parts of the listening chain are the ends - the source having recorded and playing back the music and our ears. Needless to say, what all of of experimentation reveals is that our hearing is WAY more sensitive than any specifications can tell us. And it is fun to listen and judge for ourselves what we like. The SM3 has made listening to my Ipod fun - something it was not before Dr. Xin's products came into my life.

I am not an electronic person per say - I just know intimately the process that recordings are made and mastered. I can tell you that it would burst and audiophile's bubble.

Reply author: gchang
Replied on: 05/24/2005 20:50:51
Message:

terribly sorry about the typos in my preceding message - I meant to say that phase accuracy diminishes as the frequency rises.

and the last statement - it would burst ANY audiophile's bubble....

Reply author: gchang
Replied on: 05/24/2005 21:13:44
Message:

Sorry - just one more thing - the MOST accurate sound is playing back music recorded with the fewest microphones from the the recorder you just recorded it on, through the shortest signal path to amplification and the speakers. I assure you the number of recordings that exist that you can experience this is very close to none. Even piano sonatas are editted nowadays. (No one seems to be able to put up with the slightest mistake).

gc

Reply author: shan
Replied on: 05/24/2005 23:49:38
Message:

Today I give 604,744,637 one more try :)
604 has the best soundstage indeed,
the highs are obvious better than 797,very clean
but after listening to it for awhile
I felt the sound is a bit.....cheap?
It lacks some dynamic,not as musical as 797.
or maybe becoz 797 is too good in this section?
I don't know..

744 is somewhat bright,the sound is coloured,
yes,it's beautiful,I like 744 more than 604.
but I would prefer something more neutral.

637 has the same problem as 797:
the highs are too full,sparking highs.
637 dynamic is very good,but the sound is lifeless to me.
muffled lows & mids.

I roll my 797s back finally :)

test equipment:indigo>zu>sm3>er4b

Reply author: lexnasa
Replied on: 05/25/2005 02:51:09
Message:

My AD744KNZ arrived today... I am starting to see what all the fuss is about, straight out of the box they do give the impression that they're "the best of all worlds"... but give me some burn-in time before I reach a conclusion.

EAC>FAAC -w -q 275 --obj-type LC --tns>iPod Photo 60Gb>PocketDock>Earcandy>SM3 OPA604>CD3000/Prophonic 2XS

Reply author: HiFlight
Replied on: 05/25/2005 10:01:00
Message:

lexnasa...

They (AD744s) do seem to present to me a clarity and openess that the other opamps fail to exhibit. Took me a lot of listening and comparisions before I put them at the top of my favorite list. The openess and clarity of the 744 edged out the superb imaging of the 604 to be my favorite opamp. The 604s are very good, and I also like the 227, sort of a 2-way tie for my 2nd place award!

After all is said and done, one must concede that ALL the opamps discussed on this forum sound really good, but it is sure fun to try to split hairs!!!!

Ron Kerlin
Ft Myers, FL, USA
SuperMacros, Cosmic Headroom, PortaCordaII, ER4S, ER4P, ER6i, EM3, UM2, AH-D6, HD650, AKG501, B&O A8, KSC-35

Reply author: jayray999
Replied on: 05/25/2005 11:06:05
Message:

quote:

---

Originally posted by gchang

Even piano sonatas are editted nowadays. (No one seems to be able to put up with the slightest mistake).

---

Reply author: Miguel
Replied on: 05/25/2005 12:33:27
Message:

quote:

---

Originally posted by HiFlight
After all is said and done, one must concede that ALL the opamps discussed on this forum sound really good, but it is sure fun to try to split hairs!!!!

---

Reply author: Xin
Replied on: 05/25/2005 23:49:44
Message:

I've enjoyed reading all the posts of this thread, thank you! And I, as always, listen to you: I'll include AD797 and, later, OPA604 in amps.

Like GChang said, OPAMP in general is not ideal on phase shift. Those with less open-loop gain and have this concerned in the design might be better on this, such as OPA604. I have done my very best on this issue. When amps have been done for so many years, it is hard to tell which one is better. You have to listen for a long period and looking for fatigue and imaging.

Reply author: Wombat_VC
Replied on: 05/26/2005 02:36:36
Message:

So, Dr Feng (actually, we are all wrong to call you Dr Xin, hope you're not offended ), can you tell us which is your favourite opamp?


* * * * *

Apple iPod (3G 40GB) -> Xin SuperMacro-3 (OPA604) -> Sennheiser HD600 (Equinox) or Shure E3c

Reply author: gchang
Replied on: 05/26/2005 09:35:27
Message:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Wombat_VC

So, Dr Feng (actually, we are all wrong to call you Dr Xin, hope you're not offended ), can you tell us which is your favourite opamp?

---

Reply author: gchang
Replied on: 05/26/2005 09:59:22
Message:

Wombat,

I realize from your location that you might be Asian, too. Sorry to presume that you didn't know. I meant no offense...

Reply author: Xin
Replied on: 05/26/2005 10:20:45
Message:

A name is a name, does not matter much. I really hope you don't call me "Dr." as it makes me not comfortable.

Reply author: gchang
Replied on: 05/26/2005 10:29:47
Message:

While it is a bit formal, I think that calling you Dr. also harkens to the vision that somewhere on this planet (Davis, CA, to be exact), a mad scientist is performing obscure experiemnts on tiny things for the betterment of mankind....

Reply author: Xin
Replied on: 05/26/2005 11:08:10
Message:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Wombat_VC

So, Dr Feng (actually, we are all wrong to call you Dr Xin, hope you're not offended ), can you tell us which is your favourite opamp?

---

Reply author: Miguel
Replied on: 05/26/2005 12:12:18
Message:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Xin
These three opamps should cover all the different tastes; so I'll include them in new amp orders.

---

Reply author: Wombat_VC
Replied on: 05/26/2005 16:57:12
Message:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Xin

A name is a name, does not matter much. I really hope you don't call me "Dr." as it makes me not comfortable.

---

Reply author: jamato8
Replied on: 05/26/2005 21:29:17
Message:

quote:

---

While it is a bit formal, I think that calling you Dr. also harkens to the vision that somewhere on this planet (Davis, CA, to be exact), a mad scientist is performing obscure experiemnts on tiny things for the betterment of mankind....

---

Reply author: Wombat_VC
Replied on: 06/01/2005 20:36:47
Message:

Installed AD744KN into my SM3 last night. Even at zero hour, these opamps are exactly what Ron (HiFlight) has described: "open, airy, with tight bass", plus the instruments are full of harmonics, not to mention the smoothness that the OPA604 never had. Soundstage is slightly smaller but still wide enough for me. I will of course reserve my decision to keep them there until after a full 48 hours run.


* * * * *

Apple iPod (3G 40GB) -> Xin SuperMacro-3 (OPA604) -> Sennheiser HD600 (Equinox) or Shure E3c

Reply author: lexnasa
Replied on: 06/02/2005 06:46:33
Message:

I won't be taking the AD744KNs out now... I have no desire to go back to OPA604. They truly are exceptional, and combine the best (for my ears) qualities of all the other op amps.

EAC>FAAC -w -q 275 --obj-type LC --tns>iPod Photo 60Gb>PocketDock>Earcandy>SM3 AD744KN>CD3000/Prophonic 2XS

Reply author: HiFlight
Replied on: 06/02/2005 11:16:21
Message:

I am glad that it was not just my imagination that made the 744 sound so good! It was one of the last opamps that I tried, but right away, I was impressed with the sound. It especially sounded good with the other digital modes on my iRiver, (the SRS and WOW settings) Very few other opamps sounded good when using these modes. I think the AD744 renders the nuances of harmonics extremely well. These hamonics and overtones are what give each instrument it's unique sound...If an amplifier cannot reproduce these accurately, it will not sound true, regardless of the other specifications!

For this reason, the AD744 is still my opamp of choice, and the benchmark against which I compare the others! I still like the OPA604, but not as well as the 744, plus the low current draw is an added bonus!

Ron Kerlin
Ft Myers, FL, USA
SuperMacros, Cosmic Headroom, PortaCordaII, ER4S, ER4P, ER6i, EM3, UM2, AH-D6, HD650, AKG501, B&O A8, KSC-35

Reply author: gchang
Replied on: 06/02/2005 22:16:35
Message:

I have had 744s in one of my SM3s now for a couple of days - it's true - this chip is kinda unique in its response.

The 744, to my ear (IMHO), has a "W" response curve, with dips in midbass and upper mid, and a peak in the midrange, which is similar to the 604, but with dips on both sides of the midrange peak. The dips smooths out the "edge" for in the 604 to a degree, while also providing that "smiley" effect, giving the illusion of extended frequency response by dipping out the closest harmonic regions (just above the lowest and just below the highest).

Even though the 604 doesn't seemed to be "high fi," it seems more linear - playing back a less dramatic but more detailed image of the music. Indeed, this sounds less "high fi," but it sounds more like my unflattering studio monitor system (which provides a 10hz-21khz response). With such extension on a playback system, emphasis is stressed on the phase linearity of the midrange, which means no dips around the midrange in order to provide the illusion on wide bandwidth. When music is played back on a monitor such as this, all of the extended frequency response creates a smoothness in the music - you feels the stuff on the floor, and the piatti disappear into the stratosphere without any boosting. If it is there, it will be heard.

With the 604, the SM3 reveals many overly bright mixes now so popular in the digital era, where the 744 simply attenuates this anomoly, making the mixes more listenable. With older musics that were originally analog and vinyl, the 604 simply sings in detail, while the 744 is also nice, but "more crowded" in image, because of the dips that surround the midrange are removing detail in order to give you the illusion that the music is a wider bandwidth. I don't hear the 744 having lower lows or higher highs than the 604 - the 604 just doesn't have the dips.

With this in mind, it is interesting to note how much more dramatic the bass boost switch seems to work with the 744 - perhaps the boost is positioned in the dip in the upper bass.

With all of this said, I am really still on the fense about these two choices. It was simpler before the brighter mixes of the digital era.

Vinyl Classical music was factored between the Fletcher Munson roll off of microphones recording at distance and the amount of bass you could allow before the lathe started to wonder - a "smilely" playback system was the perfect balance.

Digital Classical music has newer microphones that add back some of the highs (via acoustic slotting on the capsules) that are lost, due to the F-M curve, and no issues about too much bass. But, no matter how well recorded the music is, digital noise above 8k is JUST below audible levels - so there is a reason why music is brighter now than before - there is something to hide now. There was a beauty to all the blackness up there on a record.... I bring this up because I think that digital "crispness" can often sound ugly, so I can see why the 744 is more attractive than the 604 - it isn't as bluntly revealing, while at the same time, it does display much more detail than the 627s and other "smiley" response dips.

For now, I think that I will have one "blunt" SM3 and one "compensated" SM3. Anyway, sorry to be so long about this...

Reply author: jamato8
Replied on: 06/03/2005 05:55:48
Message:

Very interesting. Maybe this is why I know of some teenagers who prefer records. I had some very fine 35mm original lp's that were so beautiful to listen to but with moving around and adjusting the player it just became too much. I do prefer my cd's on unfiltered dacs and that is how I listen to them and enjoy them.

John

Reply author: HiFlight
Replied on: 06/03/2005 16:16:47
Message:

Just for reference, below is a list of some of the more popular opamps used in the SM, along with the current draw for each. This might be of interest to you if you use your SM mostly on battery power.

The opamps are listed from the least to the most current draw.


AD8610: 2.5 ma
AD744: 3.5 ma
OPA227: 3.7 ma
OPA604: 6.0 ma
OPA627: 7.5 ma
LM5534: 8.0 ma
AD797: 10.5ma
AD843: 12.0ma


Ron Kerlin
Ft Myers, FL, USA
SuperMacros, Cosmic Headroom, PortaCordaII, ER4S, ER4P, ER6i, EM3, UM2, AH-D6, HD650, AKG501, B&O A8, KSC-35

Reply author: gchang
Replied on: 06/03/2005 20:43:55
Message:

Very useful information, Ron!

I only use the SM3 on battery power, and found in one circumstance, while using my HD650s during a day-long recording session with 604s, that the SM3 did not last the entire day (I switched to backup SM3, of course). So the lower draw from the 744 is another plus in its favor.

Now the issue is trying to find a second pair of 744s to buy (AD only sent me two).

Thanks for posting the information!

Reply author: HiFlight
Replied on: 06/04/2005 02:42:00
Message:

gchang...

If you wait a couple weeks, you can place another sample order and get another pair of 744s. I just placed another order last nite for a second set, plus a set of AD843s.

Ron Kerlin
Ft Myers, FL, USA
SuperMacros, Cosmic Headroom, PortaCordaII, ER4S, ER4P, ER6i, EM3, UM2, AH-D6, HD650, AKG501, B&O A8, KSC-35

Reply author: jayray999
Replied on: 06/05/2005 20:15:18
Message:

I cannot believe I am putting this in print but I must confess that Ron is right and the AD744 is king above even my favorite OPA604. It seems to have most of the accuracy of the OPA604 plus an engulfing warmth that is very pleasing. I think in the near future I will put the 604 in the one SM-3 (it really does rule with original instruments recordings)and the 744 in the other. Or maybe I will buckle and use only 744s. Thanks to everybody who introduced/reviewed this great new chip.

Reply author: jayray999
Replied on: 06/05/2005 20:22:49
Message:

Which is the favored 744: JN or KN? I looked at the data sheet and with my limited knowledge they seemed pretty similar for our purposes.

Reply author: gremlin255
Replied on: 06/05/2005 22:42:32
Message:

How is the 744 with vocals? Is it upfront like the NE5534, 8610, 797 or distant like opa627's. Does it have smooth vocals or sharp and detailed compared to other opamps? I'm using 797 right now and found voices are really lively and detailed. How would the 744 sound compared to 797?

Reply author: Xin
Replied on: 06/06/2005 00:29:11
Message:

Thank Ron and others.

Regarding battery draw: the 2x buffers (4 totally) use most of the power. So, more efficient opamps do not help much, only 2-3 hours more play.

Reply author: HiFlight
Replied on: 06/06/2005 12:55:56
Message:

Gremlin...

The AD744 sounds on vocals as if you were there listening. Open, detailed and natural.

Ron Kerlin
Ft Myers, FL, USA
SuperMacros, Cosmic Headroom, PortaCordaII, ER4S, ER4P, ER6i, EM3, UM2, AH-D6, HD650, AKG501, B&O A8, KSC-35

Reply author: Wombat_VC
Replied on: 06/07/2005 02:35:51
Message:

Yes, the vocal is upfront.


* * * * *

Apple iPod (3G 40GB) -> Xin SuperMacro-3 (AD744KNZ) -> Sennheiser HD600 (Equinox)

Reply author: lexnasa
Replied on: 06/07/2005 10:34:05
Message:

AD744KN double hurrah with knobs on.

EAC>FAAC -w -q 275 --obj-type LC --tns>iPod Photo 60Gb>PocketDock>Earcandy>SM3 AD744KN>CD3000/Prophonic 2XS

Reply author: Mr Tube
Replied on: 06/08/2005 00:08:27
Message:

Has Xin optimized the number of buffer chips in parallel to 2, or even 3 or more, and does this improve the sound even further? Does this affect the overall sound as much as the choice of Op Amps? I know the more buffers the higher the current draw, and the shorter the battery life, but would 3 buffers sound significantly better than 2 in the SM3?

Reply author: HiFlight
Replied on: 06/08/2005 06:00:45
Message:

I believe that Dr Xin has mentioned in previous posts that more than 2 buffers make little, if any, audible difference in the sound. I think you will notice more differences in the nuances of the the sound by trying different opamps, and selecting the one that sounds best to your ears.

Ron Kerlin
Ft Myers, FL, USA
SuperMacros, Cosmic Headroom, PortaCordaII, ER4S, ER4P, ER6i, EM3, UM2, AH-D6, HD650, AKG501, B&O A8, KSC-35

Reply author: rko
Replied on: 06/08/2005 09:34:18
Message:

Its great to roll an amp!!!! I had just received my smv3 about 3 weeks ago. And after normal usage for about 3 hours a day. I had the intention of selling it away, simply because i prefer the sound of the pa2v2 compared to the smv3. I was sure the smv3 is capable of better sound, it sounded like a veiled beauty, just waiting for the right match to unveil her. After reading this thread, i went to Farnell and got the AD744, OPA604 and OPA227. And i finally understood--Its not the smv3 that i didnt like, its was the opa627 that i didnt like. Op-amp rolling is what every SMv3 owner should try. For a couple of dollars u get to experience what might have cost thousands of dollars in trying out different amps. I love op-amp rolling!

Reply author: HiFlight
Replied on: 06/08/2005 11:38:42
Message:

rko...

IMHO, you have gotten 3 of the best-sounding opamps available. Please post your comments and preferences after you get a chance to audition them!

Yes, the ability to select your favorite opamp is just one more thing that makes the SM unique among headphone amplifiers!

Ron Kerlin
Ft Myers, FL, USA
SuperMacros, Cosmic Headroom, PortaCordaII, ER4S, ER4P, ER6i, EM3, UM2, AH-D6, HD650, AKG501, B&O A8, KSC-35

Reply author: Xin
Replied on: 06/08/2005 22:05:24
Message:

Just had a chance to put in a pair of AD744. It is easy to tell the goodness. The sound stage is indeed narrower than 604, but is significantly more laid back, i.e. the sound stage is more before and away from face and almost no ear/face pushing, even with my newly modified Sennheiser HD212 which was quite congested due to its closed style. Simply put, the sound stage is more real and pleasant. Accurate, detailed and bass defined, while still smooth, relaxed and full of air and harmonics. Rich, but not as heavy and thick as the 797. Simply put, better than any other opamp, without obvious shortcoming. Seems the perfect opamp, even very efficient and cheap, ought to be SM3's default. Ron, you have the credit, even though it was Walt Jung made this opamp famous with the classic AD744/811 pre-amp published in Audio Amateur, 1994, but you re-discovered it with SM3.

Reply author: Xin
Replied on: 06/08/2005 23:46:34
Message:

I once asked Walt Jung to accept a gift amp from me, but he refjected politely. I understand, in a commercialized world, it is hard to be good hearted. Everyone is alarmed to business craps. Without this great guy, without any portable amp, period. When nobody believed in opamp audio, he kept working on opamps and audio. His magazine collums and books are the text books to audio engineers and DIYers. BUF634 (used in SM3) used his diamond buffer idea, for example. PPA etc. amps use fully his multiple loop idea. I use his idea to eliminate input distortion of JFET opamps. SM3 and my other amps simply proved very well his idea and work and this is why I always want him to enjoy the fruit of his great work as he does travel a lot to give lectures in many places and thus does need a good portable amp.

Reply author: Wombat_VC
Replied on: 06/09/2005 00:47:50
Message:

Alright! Way to go! AD744 will be the new default!


* * * * *

Apple iPod (3G 40GB) -> Xin SuperMacro-3 (AD744KNZ) -> Sennheiser HD600 (Equinox)

Reply author: shan
Replied on: 06/09/2005 01:38:58
Message:

I still prefer 797 with my er4/k240m
high dynamic,lively & musical sound :)

744 sounds a bit too bright on my er4b

Reply author: Xin
Replied on: 06/09/2005 02:41:09
Message:

Okay guys, this is the true beauty of AD744 and alike that have an external compensation pin: you can bypass the output stage and get true class-A!!! I'll be offering special plug-in modules that take this advantage. For those who already have a pair AD744s and are brave enough, here is how to try it out:

Reply author: irvin
Replied on: 06/09/2005 03:55:21
Message:

quote:

---

Originally posted by shan

I still prefer 797 with my er4/k240m
high dynamic,lively & musical sound :)

744 sounds a bit too bright on my er4b

---

Reply author: jhlbbs
Replied on: 06/09/2005 05:00:15
Message:

What is the sound effect going to be of this and how will it affect battery life (as I remember Class-A from big amps it sucks power like nobodys buisiness)?

quote:

---

Originally posted by Xin

Okay guys, this is the true beauty of AD744 and alike that have an external compensation pin: you can bypass the output stage and get true class-A!!! I'll be offering special plug-in modules that take this advantage. For those who already have a pair AD744s and are brave enough, here is how to try it out:

---

Reply author: guido
Replied on: 06/09/2005 05:09:24
Message:

so pin 5 is bent across to go into hole 6?

High end Audio; Norh Marble 9.0s, Kratos subs, QDS valve CD player, Black Widow Valve pre, Marchand active Xover, Audio Research D125, ASL Wave 8s and Norh LeAmps. [and 30Gb iPod with ER4P\S and Supermini] see www.delgi.com

Reply author: Mr Tube
Replied on: 06/09/2005 06:50:13
Message:

OK Golden ears Ron: What is your opinion of the sound in this configuration. You have gained my respect through all your comments and good ears! I agree Walt Jung is the master of this stuff! Too bad he wont accept an amp.....

Reply author: lexnasa
Replied on: 06/09/2005 07:08:24
Message:

I just took a leap of faith with a pair of long nosed pliers... as always Xin is onto something special. Improved dynamics and imaging, bass more solid, the whole presentation faster and more cohesive... I have no idea the effects on battery life, but I'm sure I'll know soon enough. I highly recommend all AD744 lovers to take the plunge!

EAC>FAAC -w -q 275 --obj-type LC --tns>iPod Photo 60Gb>PocketDock>Earcandy>SM3 AD744KN>CD3000/Prophonic 2XS

Reply author: HiFlight
Replied on: 06/09/2005 08:15:41
Message:

I just got a spare set of 744s, so I guess I will not be able to resist trying the class A mod!!! Just rolled in my first set of AD843s, but have not yet had a chance to critically listen to them side-by-side to the 744s. At first listen, they have a similar sound, but with a wider and deeper soundstage.

Ron Kerlin
Ft Myers, FL, USA
SuperMacros, Cosmic Headroom, PortaCordaII, ER4S, ER4P, ER6i, EM3, UM2, AH-D6, HD650, AKG501, B&O A8, KSC-35

Reply author: jayray999
Replied on: 06/09/2005 08:31:34
Message:

Did anyone figure out 744KN versus 744JN versus 744KNZ. All are PDIP.

Reply author: jayray999
Replied on: 06/09/2005 09:26:41
Message:

Doing the Class A mod (I call it 744A) results in a richer more ornate sound. It sounds like you are standing on stage amidst the orchestra. The sound is vast and yet close. I haven't had time to try with solo music.

Reply author: jayray999
Replied on: 06/09/2005 09:34:31
Message:

I suggest to anyone trying this that instead of bending pin 6 out of the way, just break it off. Placing a chip with a bent pin 5 is hard enough, you don't want pin 6 to get in your way.

Additionally I don't know how many insertions/removals such a chip will withstand before the bent pin 5 eventually breaks so keep the rolling at a minimum for a while till Dr. Xin comes out with 744A modules.

Reply author: guido
Replied on: 06/09/2005 09:46:17
Message:

Ok..just tried this class A mod with the 744....wow!!
So far it's the best of all the opamps I have tried with my Ety ER4s.
The 604 I was not happy with ...kind of gritty.
The 797...very nice and full...
But with this modded 744 it all makes sense now...especially piano passages which are very difficult to reproduce and often sound either lifeless or harsh.
Bass extension is prodigious...have to audition further...will report back.

High end Audio; Norh Marble 9.0s, Kratos subs, QDS valve CD player, Black Widow Valve pre, Marchand active Xover, Audio Research D125, ASL Wave 8s and Norh LeAmps. [and 30Gb iPod with ER4P\S and Supermini] see www.delgi.com

Reply author: shan
Replied on: 06/09/2005 09:55:05
Message:

not bad..
but I can hear.....obvious background noise...
797 has the highest dynamic & fullest sound
if your headphones aren't too bassey...
797 will be the best :)

Reply author: Xin
Replied on: 06/09/2005 10:24:26
Message:

Here what I found after more listening and testing:

1) AD744 does have a significantly higher noise level, 8dB higher than others (5534, 797, 604 etc.). This is the major downside. I'm thinking about this.

2) AD744a has less dynamic rage than AD744, 2dB less.

3) Both 744 and 744a have higher IMD (double of others), but THD is the same low as others and overall all the RMAA graphs are much cleaner than others.

To my ears, while 744 is more laid back, 744a is more detailed.

Regarding class-A: in AD744, the output stage is not fully class-A biased but the stage before is. So, no difference on battery life.

Here is how the special AD744A plugin module look:

Reply author: gchang
Replied on: 06/09/2005 12:36:58
Message:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Xin

Okay guys, this is the true beauty of AD744 and alike that have an external compensation pin: you can bypass the output stage and get true class-A!!! I'll be offering special plug-in modules that take this advantage. For those who already have a pair AD744s and are brave enough, here is how to try it out:

---

Reply author: Xin
Replied on: 06/09/2005 15:45:20
Message:

Good question and I just found that the 5534 has this feature and I just did it and works like a charm!!! Gee, what a big circle we just went through!

While I don't recommend you do this trick on AD744 because they are more expensive and dynamic rage is decreased, I encourage everyone to try it with 5534 because they are dealy cheap (<$1) and all benchmarks are perfect. If I'll still use 5534 as default, all of them will be installed this way.

AD829 seems can do this too and its noise level is on par with AD797.

Reply author: jamato8
Replied on: 06/09/2005 17:08:03
Message:

Ok, I did it with the 5534 (class A). The bass is different but I will have to give this some time. I am listening to the Allman Brothers "Eat a Peach" but I not used to the sound so I need to listen to something I am used to but the sound isn't bad and I beleive opamps need to left on a while to settle in.

John

Reply author: HiFlight
Replied on: 06/09/2005 20:03:50
Message:

Dr Xin...
Looking at your module picture, it looks like you just bridged from pin 5 to pin 6. It would be easier to just solder a jumper across 5-6 then clip off the end of 5. That way, we wouldn't have to bend the pin, which results in a weak pin. Would that work, or is there something under the module board you used that is not visible??

Ron Kerlin
Ft Myers, FL, USA
SuperMacros, Cosmic Headroom, PortaCordaII, ER4S, ER4P, ER6i, EM3, UM2, AH-D6, HD650, AKG501, B&O A8, KSC-35

Reply author: lexnasa
Replied on: 06/09/2005 20:08:22
Message:

I did not notice any increase in noise level compared with the standard AD744 configuration... and I think Xin confirms this (+8db for both AD744 and AD744a compared with the other op amps tested). So the bottom line with AD744a is no increase in noise level, slight decrease in dynamic range, same battery life but greater detail and more extended bass. I think the increase in detail and extended bass far outweighs a slight decrease in dynamic range... actually to my ears it sounded like the dynamic range was increased, but perhaps I need to wash out my ears!

EAC>FAAC -w -q 275 --obj-type LC --tns>iPod Photo 60Gb>PocketDock>Earcandy>SM3 AD744KN>CD3000/Prophonic 2XS

Reply author: HiFlight
Replied on: 06/09/2005 20:18:16
Message:

I just got another set of AD744s this morning, and a set of AD843s. I installed the 843 in one SM, and the modded 744 in the other. Since I cannot directly compare the 744A to the plain 744, I will just comment from memory. The soundstage sounds more 3-dimensional, and the bass is reproduced more accurately, especially at very low fundamental tones, such as the 32hz pipe on a pipe organ. The difference in bass is only noticeable in recordings were the very deep bass is actually present, and not rolled off. Kettle drums, pipe organ, and string bass seem to demonstrate this low-bass improvement best. It would be interesting to scope the output of the 744A and the stock 744 when feeding them with some very low-freq sine and square waves.

Compared to the AD843, there is a better soundstage depth in the 744A. . Regardless of the benchmarks or objective measurements, the class A bias sounds better and smoother to my ear, however the 843 is a very nice sounding opamp. I find it very difficult to tell apart from the AD744KNZ during side-by-side listening. I wonder if this opamp also lends itself to the class A mod??

Ron Kerlin
Ft Myers, FL, USA
SuperMacros, Cosmic Headroom, PortaCordaII, ER4S, ER4P, ER6i, EM3, UM2, AH-D6, HD650, AKG501, B&O A8, KSC-35

Reply author: jayray999
Replied on: 06/09/2005 21:44:07
Message:

quote:

---

Originally posted by HiFlight

however the 843 is a very nice sounding opamp. I find it very difficult to tell apart from the AD744KNZ during side-by-side listening. I wonder if this opamp also lends itself to the class A mod??

---

Reply author: Xin
Replied on: 06/10/2005 02:37:04
Message:

Ron, the picture is missleading. I cut off the pin 6 and soldered 5 to there. I did think about a jumper.

I have good feelings about AD829 and have ordered some.

So far I like this 5534-A.

Reply author: HiFlight
Replied on: 06/10/2005 06:58:15
Message:

Dr Xin:
I hope the module you are considereing will be such that different opamps that lend themselves to this class A configuration can be rolled onto the module, then the module installed in the SM dip socket.

Just bending pin 5 really requires great care to avoid unrepairable damage to the chip when bending or installing.

I observed the same subjective feeling as lexnasa, I also felt that the dynamic range of 744A sounded greater than the 744. Maybe it is just the smoothness..at any rate, it does sound outstanding. Now on to mod and try the 5534!!! It will replace my AD843s, then I can compare both the 744A and the 5534A side-by-side.

Ron Kerlin
Ft Myers, FL, USA
SuperMacros, Cosmic Headroom, PortaCordaII, ER4S, ER4P, ER6i, EM3, UM2, AH-D6, HD650, AKG501, B&O A8, KSC-35

Reply author: shan
Replied on: 06/10/2005 07:32:02
Message:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Xin

Ron, the picture is missleading. I cut off the pin 6 and soldered 5 to there. I did think about a jumper.

I have good feelings about AD829 and have ordered some.

So far I like this 5534-A.

---

Reply author: lexnasa
Replied on: 06/10/2005 09:28:57
Message:

Is anyone else experiencing an extraordinary three dimensional sound with 744 in class A? Now I'm getting used to the sound, I am realising that it just sounds very very different to every other op amp I've tried before.

Extremely complex passages are handled as if they weren't complex atall, but no excitement is lost. I am actually finding it quite disconcerting, it is like the headphones are simply not there. At first it sounded a bit like the old "3D sound" Enoch Light LPs where he would deliberately invert phase for specific instruments in order to create a 3D sense of space.

I think it may be due to an improvement in soundstaging, a vocal that subjectively occupied maybe 20 degrees of the sound field now occupies 5 degrees. It's the same soundstaging trick pulled by the OPA604s with none of the drawbacks. Everything exactly where it should be... wow.

I generally notice that the 744A brings out the difference in each and every recording, whilst still making them all highly listenable and engaging. I listen to everything from renaissance choral music to jazz, thrash punk and electronica... they all sound fantastic.

Call me overexcited.. but could this be the genesis of the SM4?

I'd also like to thank Ron for all his efforts... improving the quality of all our lives, and enabling grown men to cry!

EAC>FAAC -w -q 275 --obj-type LC --tns>iPod Photo 60Gb>PocketDock>Earcandy>SM3 AD744KN>CD3000/Prophonic 2XS

Reply author: jayray999
Replied on: 06/10/2005 10:11:56
Message:

lexnasa: Your comments are dead on. This three dimensionality is very disconcerting. To me it is like wandering on the stage where the band/orchestra is playing. Initially I was not used to it either but it is truly magnificent once you get used to it. And yes, we all owe Ron a big thank you. He has been so generous with his time and his detailed analysis on this forum. So many people have gained so much from Dr. Xin's wizardry and Ron's heightened perception.

Reply author: lexnasa
Replied on: 06/10/2005 10:42:56
Message:

Jayray999, thanks for confirming that I'm not going insane. It's now 1.30am in Hong Kong, and I've been listening to the 744 in class A for about 4 hours, with constant wonderment. Perhaps it's the... ehemm... moderate alcalhol intake, or perhaps it's just right. I'll come clean, I have always hated 16 bit audio, and I still believe you can get more out of vinyl with a decent turntable... but, with SM3 I have the tweakability that previously only existed in the purely analogue world, and I'm starting to hear amazing things. Double hurrah.

EAC>FAAC -w -q 275 --obj-type LC --tns>iPod Photo 60Gb>PocketDock>Earcandy>SM3 AD744KN class A>CD3000/Prophonic 2XS

Reply author: Xin
Replied on: 06/10/2005 10:48:22
Message:

Ron, that's a good idea: another adapter for compensation pin equiped opamps. Difficult to do though. But ZC, the starter of this great thread, has exactly the adapters we need for these:




Lexnasa, I'm hearing the same great sound through 5534-A. All the virtues are remained, but everything becomes better: more extended lows, highs, details and sound stage. The sound is just incredible, one step closer to what human has been seeking for.

Here is my thoughts about this:

1) When the output is bypassed, there is one less thing in the signal path - always a good thing. Less distortion, less phase shift, faster response...

2) The stage before the output is usually class-A biased. I think such class-A trick is way better than forcing an opamp (such as OPA627) to class-A at its output, because that drains more battery and uses the opamp at un-designed condition.

3) The output stage is always one of the weakest parts of an opamp (the other is the input, critical to noise), as it is the high current and voltage area, where is the major source of all kinds of distortions, especially those hard to be benchmarked nonlinear distortions. It is really good to get rid of this part, as SM3 already has a much better and more powerful output - 2x dedicated buffers.

Too bad I did not think about this trick until Ron's discovery of AD744 that draw my attention to this. But don't call it SM4, people will get nerves, even though it is indeed a huge improvement. And the upgrading is simple and easy.

Shan, thanks very much for all the first-hand info. For the AD829, what attracts me is its compensation pin for this class-A trick.

Reply author: jayray999
Replied on: 06/10/2005 10:57:25
Message:

Dr. Xin: I have NE5534AN, NE5534N, SE5534AN, SE5534N and SA5534AN. Which do you recommend? Also, I saw AD829 right after your compensation pin trick but the recommended use was for VIDEO appliances so I decided against ordering it.

Reply author: lexnasa
Replied on: 06/10/2005 11:01:08
Message:

Xin, OK, no more SM4 talk... but I'm still having a lot of fun with 744A... I look forward to more amazing leaps forward from Xin and friends!

EAC>FAAC -w -q 275 --obj-type LC --tns>iPod Photo 60Gb>PocketDock>Earcandy>SM3 AD744KN class A>CD3000/Prophonic 2XS

Reply author: lexnasa
Replied on: 06/10/2005 11:02:28
Message:

I tried all the 5534s and liked SE5534AN the best.

EAC>FAAC -w -q 275 --obj-type LC --tns>iPod Photo 60Gb>PocketDock>Earcandy>SM3 AD744KN class A>CD3000/Prophonic 2XS

Reply author: HiFlight
Replied on: 06/10/2005 16:00:35
Message:

Dr Xin...

I dug out some 8 pin IC sockets that I had hidden away for several years, and will try to make up an easy-to-roll adapter containing the opamps that can be used in the class A mode. Will keep you posted.

Side-by-side, both the 744A and 5534A sound great, but my preference for realism, detail, and tight, fundemental bass still goes to the 744.

If I still had my scope, I would compare the 2 at very low frequencies, and very high treble frequencies, and see how they pass the edges of a squarewave. Probably doens't have anything to do with how they sound with music, but would be a fun experiment. I am now trying to compile a list of opamps that lend themselves to this easy class A mod.

Thank you so much for making us aware of this method of improving the sound by such a simple mod to the chip!!!!

Ron Kerlin
Ft Myers, FL, USA
SuperMacros, Cosmic Headroom, PortaCordaII, ER4S, ER4P, ER6i, EM3, UM2, AH-D6, HD650, AKG501, B&O A8, KSC-35

Reply author: Jon L
Replied on: 06/10/2005 16:26:39
Message:

Is it just me who noticed a decrease in midbass Quantity when going from 744->744A? I agree about more detail, more 3-D sound, clarity, etc with 744A, but there is a decrease in bass quantity. 744A has tighter bass with better definition and probably even extension, but bass bloom and growliness is decreased a tad bit. This is a great thing for 'phones like Senns, Beyer, but for my Ety4S, I'm kind of missing the extra bass energy with 744..

Reply author: shan
Replied on: 06/10/2005 18:01:51
Message:

wow...now sm3(SE5534AN(A)) really sounds big

Reply author: HiFlight
Replied on: 06/10/2005 18:15:17
Message:

Jon...

I think you are correct in your asessment. In many cases, "bass bloom" and the heavier sound we normally associate with deep bass is not true fundamental bass at all, but coloration and harmonics resulting from distortion. This often passes for real bass, but is not. If one compares the sound to that of a live orchestra, the differences can easily be heard.

One of the drawbacks of having an amplifier that gets nearer and nearer to perfection is that it becomes ever mores critical of any shortcomings of both source and transducer, whether headphone or speaker.

The bass is of somewhat different character when using the NE5532 in the class A mode. Although the AD744A has been my favorite so far, when I listen to both the 744 and the 5532 in class A mode, I will say that the 5532 sounds smoother, with more bass than does the 744 when using my Etys!

Give the 5532 A a try. I think you will like it with your ER4S!

Ron Kerlin
Ft Myers, FL, USA
SuperMacros, Cosmic Headroom, PortaCordaII, ER4S, ER4P, ER6i, EM3, UM2, AH-D6, HD650, AKG501, B&O A8, KSC-35

Reply author: HiFlight
Replied on: 06/10/2005 18:45:18
Message:

Jon...

My above post should have referenced the NE5534, not the 5532. I guess I have been reading and typing too many different opamp numbers, or else it was a senior moment!!!!

Ron Kerlin
Ft Myers, FL, USA
SuperMacros, Cosmic Headroom, PortaCordaII, ER4S, ER4P, ER6i, EM3, UM2, AH-D6, HD650, AKG501, B&O A8, KSC-35

Reply author: Wombat_VC
Replied on: 06/10/2005 23:41:29
Message:

While I don't mind openning up the SM3 to replace opamps, bending my only pair of AD744KNZ is definitely not my cup of tea. So, Xin, I'm eagerly waiting for your release of the adapted AD744(A) or 5534(A) for sale.


* * * * *

Apple iPod (3G 40GB) -> Xin SuperMacro-3 (AD744KNZ) -> Sennheiser HD600 (Equinox)

Reply author: shan
Replied on: 06/11/2005 00:23:58
Message:

Thanks man...
Now 5534(A) & 797 are my favor op amps :D

5534 is more neutral,accurate,soundstage is better,
smoother mids,very comfortable.

797 has more energy,deepest bass,beautiful mids & highs,
truly splendid sound.

Just like RS1(797) vs MSPRO(5534),
both are amazing chips :) (& sm3 of course)

FYI
mark loves 797,you can find so many 797s in their machine XD
Im wondering which chip is used in mcintosh...

http://www.marklevinson.com/image_library/32AB_lo.jpg


http://www.marklevinson.com/image_library/32AUDOH_lo.jpg


http://www.marklevinson.com/image_library/320S_Interior_withshield_lo.jpg


http://www.marklevinson.com/image_library/32CONTOH_lo.jpg

Reply author: Xin
Replied on: 06/11/2005 01:49:37
Message:

5534-A is better than 797 to my ears, 797 is too thick and heavy.

This stuff sounds too special, never heard anything like this before. If the veil was removed, now it is nude. So I hate to let you wait, - you can order them now. For those who cannot roll opamps, you may send your amp back, no service charge.

Reply author: gchang
Replied on: 06/11/2005 10:18:45
Message:

I have to concur - the 5534A is really good! Very clean and open.

These chips have been the staple opamp of $500k+ pro audio mixing consoles (Neve, SSL, etc.) for the last 25 years. There must be a reason....

To me, this soundstage is more realistic than the 744. The most important frequency spectra sounds intact, without any tweaking for getting the "extra wide bandwidth" effect (smilely freq response).

I, too, found the 744 light on the mid-bass area - and found myself switching on the bass option switch on some recordings. I attributed this to a dip in response in this area which makes the ultra bass more audible (not necessarily a realistic atribute). This is certainly not so with the 5534, where the midbass is clearly not attenuated.

I must admit that I have been trying to find a reason not to like the 744 - I don't know why. There is something in the experience that sounds artificial to me. It goes to show - the most different items in each of our playback chain are our ears!

I am not throwing down the gauntlet to all of you 744 fans! I am just admitting a knee-jerk reaction on my part...! Congrats to Xin and all of us for this class A discovery!!!

Reply author: kessomatt
Replied on: 06/11/2005 13:26:29
Message:

Which op-amp would you guys say has the most bass? I dont mind it being a bit "colored" either.

Reply author: HiFlight
Replied on: 06/11/2005 14:49:58
Message:

kessomatt....

You might try the OPA 227. It has a very nice smooth sound with lots of bass. One of my favorite opamps. The NE5532 with the class A mod should please you, as well as the AD797. Try all 3, see which one you like!!!!

Ron Kerlin
Ft Myers, FL, USA
SuperMacros, Cosmic Headroom, PortaCordaII, ER4S, ER4P, ER6i, EM3, UM2, AH-D6, HD650, AKG501, B&O A8, KSC-35

Reply author: kessomatt
Replied on: 06/11/2005 15:06:37
Message:

Thanks for the tip. Where is a good place to get these?

Reply author: kessomatt
Replied on: 06/11/2005 16:48:19
Message:

Ok never mind that last question, exactly which versions should I get? There are multiple choices for ad797(an,anz)

Reply author: HiFlight
Replied on: 06/11/2005 16:57:11
Message:

kessomatt....

You can get free samples from www.ti.com and http://www.analog.com
You need to register on both sites for free samples. TI is more generous that AD. They will give you more than 2 of each.

Ron Kerlin
Ft Myers, FL, USA
SuperMacros, Cosmic Headroom, PortaCordaII, ER4S, ER4P, ER6i, EM3, UM2, AH-D6, HD650, AKG501, B&O A8, KSC-35

Reply author: jayray999
Replied on: 06/11/2005 23:37:54
Message:

Dr. Xin. Can you tell me the DIGIKEY part number for the 8 pin IC sockets you are using for the 744/829/5534 Class A modules.

Reply author: zchhaanog
Replied on: 06/11/2005 23:53:33
Message:

As I promised to myself, thanks to my hard work, finally, My DIY of 8-Pin SOIC-DIP Socket Adapter comes out. Yes, Xin's new discover of class-A, etc. has found this adapter one more new application. You can plug jump wire into its sockets, this would avoid any unnecessary damage to the opamps. I love this great tool. I even found a name for it -- Fane, which can describe both the western and oriental ancient temple which I love the most.

My belief is once you've decided to do it, you do it well.

I currently put my adapters on Ebay,

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=73154&item=7523107431&rd=1

because I see no elsewhere to host the describing page, and there's no exchanging method elsewhere. There's much detailed specification there.

If you happened to like this Fane adapter, and want to get some, you can write to this email: niexu@yahoo.com, who is my best friend living in CA, U.S. Or you could buy it from Ebay.

I hope powered by my Fane adapter, the beautiful Amp will more shine!


zc

quote:

---

Originally posted by zchhaanog

quote:

---

Originally posted by jayray999

quote:

---

Originally posted by zchhaanog

What about this picture

---

Nice. Did you solder yourself?

---

Yes, I like DIY. I'd diy my own adapter BTW. I like the kits in the picture too, they just are like Chinese jade, lovely.

Thanks.

edit:
BTW, the picture host seems much better at http://www.imageshack.us/ than the one i used before.

---

Reply author: Xin
Replied on: 06/12/2005 00:48:08
Message:

quote:

---

Originally posted by jayray999

Dr. Xin. Can you tell me the DIGIKEY part number for the 8 pin IC sockets you are using for the 744/829/5534 Class A modules.

---

Reply author: Darren
Replied on: 06/12/2005 04:55:28
Message:

Xin

Is it possible to get the SM modified to convert the crossfeed switch (that I never use, does anyone else?) to be used to turn the class A mode on/off. This would be really useful for getting an instant comparison in sound quality, and would remove the hassle of modifying chips or using adapters.

Reply author: HiFlight
Replied on: 06/12/2005 05:53:38
Message:

Darren...

FWIW, I use the XinFeed switch nearly all the time. Seems to make long-term listening more natural and less fatiguing for me.

Ron Kerlin
Ft Myers, FL, USA
SuperMacros, Cosmic Headroom, PortaCordaII, ER4S, ER4P, ER6i, EM3, UM2, AH-D6, HD650, AKG501, B&O A8, KSC-35

Reply author: slwiser
Replied on: 06/12/2005 06:59:09
Message:

I think is does make a difference but it has to be considered in context with the music type and the music mix that is on the recording and the phones that you use (soundstage width). With my phones I like the sound without crossfeed unless the music mix is weak. Having the flexiblity of the crossfeed therefore does increase my listening pleasure in overall.

Slwiser

Reply author: jayray999
Replied on: 06/12/2005 08:33:37
Message:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Xin

quote:

---

Originally posted by jayray999

Dr. Xin. Can you tell me the DIGIKEY part number for the 8 pin IC sockets you are using for the 744/829/5534 Class A modules.

---

Jay, I don't use any IC socket. I solder the DIP ICs right onto the SOIC-DIP adapters.

---

Reply author: shan
Replied on: 06/12/2005 09:02:17
Message:

After many comparisons,now 5534A is my default :)....

May I ask a dumb question
Is it possible plug a pair of buf634 into the op sockets?

Reply author: jayray999
Replied on: 06/12/2005 09:12:08
Message:

Wow, I thought you were a 744A kind of guy. Just kidding. May I ask (yet again) the exact chip number SE or SA or NE etc and who manufactured it. Regarding buffers: "No" Buffers in that socket have no functionality as far as I know. You may even blow something. In future though, Dr. Xin may offer buffer sockets and then we can then stack them using zchhaanog's excellent adapters although probbably with reduced caps. I wonder if zchhaanog stacks buffers considering SM-3s have no buffer socket option.

Reply author: Xin
Replied on: 06/12/2005 09:32:23
Message:

Darren, it is easy to tell the difference. As NE5534 is included in all SM3, everyone should try it.

Yes ZC's adapters are ideal for stacking buffers. Usually it is DIYers who want more buffers; for them, they can easily remove the two caps and add buffer sockets.

Shan was a 797 guy, not 744. I wonder if he tried AD829-A? It is very much like AD797 - super low noise. So far I like 829A the most, but I'll spend more time.

Reply author: shan
Replied on: 06/12/2005 09:39:50
Message:

can I stack op amps?5534+797...lol

Reply author: zchhaanog
Replied on: 06/12/2005 12:26:09
Message:

Jayray, Yes, my SM3 is 4x buffer now stacked by my Fane adapters . When I ordered mine, there's still buffer options on Xin's site.

Shan, glad to konw you were a 5534 guy. Basically, I am 5534 kind of somebody too. I have SE5534AN and think it is better (spec and battery drain).

I have no time to try so many amazing things with SuperMacro. I feel so lucky I bought this stuff.

Now here comes the leading actor - a Class-A module :



A. Short circuit the two pads.

B. Bend the 6th pin inwards. This will give minimal demage to the very very weak pins. Suggest you coat the pin with solder tin before bending it, which will also protect it.

C. Cut the unused leg () right here.

D. The clean surface will hold the bended pin.

A clsss a module is done.


zc

Reply author: Darren
Replied on: 06/12/2005 13:55:11
Message:

zchhaanog

The ebay site states that delivery is only available to the US. Is it possible to send a batch to the UK?

Reply author: zchhaanog
Replied on: 06/13/2005 01:41:48
Message:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Darren

zchhaanog

The ebay site states that delivery is only available to the US. Is it possible to send a batch to the UK?

---

Reply author: guido
Replied on: 06/13/2005 03:51:47
Message:

what about these?

These sockets have the same specification as the low profile versions above, but with super flat hollow tail contacts which allow the height of the IC above the PCB to be reduced, as the IC can sit lower in the socket (as shown in the diagram below)
Description IC, socket, ultra low profile, DIL, turned pin, hollow tail, 0.3in, 8 way
RS Stock No. 226-3821
Manufacturer WINSLOW ADAPTICS
Part No. W30508SFT



High end Audio; Norh Marble 9.0s, Kratos subs, QDS valve CD player, Black Widow Valve pre, Marchand active Xover, Audio Research D125, ASL Wave 8s and Norh LeAmps. [and 30Gb iPod with ER4P\S and Supermini] see www.delgi.com

Reply author: Big Al
Replied on: 06/13/2005 05:50:13
Message:

Your first 2 links are non-accessible...

quote:

---

Originally posted by guido

what about these?

http://www.rssouthafrica.com/cgi-bin/bv/browse/Module.jsp?BV_SessionID=@@@@1393247981.1118658770@@@@&BV_EngineID=ccceaddelghkeijcefeceefdffhdglj.0&cacheID=zanetscape&3296112333=3296112333&catoid=-990444165

http://www.rssouthafrica.com/cgi-bin/bv/browse/Module.jsp?BV_SessionID=@@@@1393247981.1118658770@@@@&BV_EngineID=ccceaddelghkeijcefeceefdffhdglj.0&cacheID=zanetscape&3296111779=3296111779&stockNo=2263809&prmstocknum=2263809&prodoid=7487852

High end Audio; Norh Marble 9.0s, Kratos subs, QDS valve CD player, Black Widow Valve pre, Marchand active Xover, Audio Research D125, ASL Wave 8s and Norh LeAmps. [and 30Gb iPod with ER4P\S and Supermini] see www.delgi.com

---

Reply author: gchang
Replied on: 06/13/2005 09:16:17
Message:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Darren

zchhaanog

The ebay site states that delivery is only available to the US. Is it possible to send a batch to the UK?

---

Reply author: Jon L
Replied on: 06/13/2005 22:56:03
Message:

Here's my impressions of opamps in SM v.3 I posted at head-fi with recent addendums for class A biasing.


Audio PC/Foobar-->modded Empirical Audio Transit OR 4G iPod with apple lossless->Sik Din->Xin mini adapter->SM3->Ety4P. Most comparisons done with 4P->4S switch on, bass boost on, gain to low, and crossfeed off.

Sorry, no AD8610. I do have some but did not want to use up the few Browndogs left in my possession.

THS4061MJG

Some people really like this op-amp, and it is good, but compared to OPA627/637, it just sounded a bit veiled and less transparent. Triangles, Cymbals didn't sparkle and decay like 637, and instruments/vocals didn't have that "open" quality many people talk about with 627/637. Bass was pretty neutral sounding but didn't have quite as much Oomp of 627/637. Music also sounded a few rows more laid-back compared to others, contributing to less immediacy. The upside is that it's very forgiving of bad recordings, but it gives up too much transparency IMO. Still, you wouldn't notice much of these "shortcomings" unless directly A-B'd with songs familiar to you.

AD797

I really like this op-amp. General tonality/flavor is somewhat more similar to THS4061 than to OPA627/637, but with few important differences. Compared to THS4061, instruments/vocals "project" more with more texture, verve, and character. More exciting and engaging sound. It also is more forgiving than 627/637, sounding a bit more liquid and smooth throughout the low-treble/upper-midrange area. Sibilance in poor recordings are more tolerable and less grating. Bass is not as thick and round as OPA627/637 but barely so. Well-balanced sound without any offensive flaws with enough detail/texture to prevent boredom. If you find your setup with 627/637 a bit too intolerant of poorer recordings, definitely give 797 a listen.

OPA627

The "King" is in the house. Very detailed, textured, robust throughout mid-treble to low bass range. VERY involving and engaging sound, very much reminiscent of a very high-end 300B push-pull tube amp, for example. Bass is slamming (with SM3 bass boost on) and rich, upper-midrange/low-treble is very open and seductively breathy, which is what sets 627 apart from other op-amps. Very hard to give up this quality once you're used to it. Loved my SM v.1 with 627 and love my SM v.3 with it as well. What's not to like? Well, it is pretty unforgiving of those heavily processed rock/pop albums that have boosted treble/upper-mids. But those same albums sound just as annoying over $100K super high-end speaker systems as well.

OPA637

Basically my choice with one caveat. You must use use good bass boost, like SM3's switch. 637 is a little more extrended in high treble compared to 627 and sound a bit faster as well. On naturally-miked female focals, for example, the voice sounds more even and continuous through the entire treble range(including high treble) than 627, which seems a wee bit rolled off/darker in extreme treble, which in turn makes voices a bit thicker/richer. So it'll be a preference thing. 637 does sound a bit more pellucid and crystalline, but without some bass boost, all that transparency can sound a little too "naked" with many CD's. Throw on the SM3 bass boost, and the rich bass balances out the clarity resulting in truly stunning high-end sound. But I can see others preferring 627 over 637. Once again, it's a preference/synergy thing. I suppose 637 can be called even a little less forgiving than 627, but when I do run into those really nasty recordings, I just throw in the crossfeed switch, which softens the treble a bit.

Well, this is about all I can stand to do in one day, but soon I hope to do the comparison again when I can make up the 4-pin XLR adapter for my AKG K1000, which Xin keeps saying should be OK with SM v.3.


ADDENDUM:

AD744

Perhaps my favorite, but then again, there are so many opamps that sound great in SM v.3 that perhaps "favorite" is pointless. AD744 does not "wow" you at first, but more you listen, the more you like its combination of neutrality AND detail AND musicality. Nothing stands out as emphasized or recesed, yet there is rich tonality and focus through midranges. There's also this pleasing texture to instruments and vocals, which is not 'quite' as present in something like OPA637. OPA637 does seem to have a bit more extended and translucent high treble, but that's OPA637's strength over all others.
Oh, did I mention the bass is simply Perfect? At least for Ety4S w/ bass boost on? The right amount of slam, tautness, extension, and warmth. Oooh, yeah.

AD744 Class A biased -- "AD744A"

Improvements are across the board over AD744, as hard it is to imagine. Class A biasing tends to burn off haze and veil mostly, which you didn't think was present until it was gone. More transparency, detail, immediacy, and delicacy come right through. This is High Fidelity and High Resolution with capital letters. It really sounds amazing, and it pulls off the trick of "wow'ing" you WITHOUT emphasizing certain parts, which is indeed a tough trick. It's even more detailed and resolving through the ranges than OPA637, yet it gives more body and 3-D density to vocals/instruments. What's the catch? Alas, there is a catch after all. Even though bass quality is probably better, bass quantity decreases a bit over AD744. With a lot of full-sized cans, this is going to be interpreted as tighter, more controlled bass. But with Ety4S, even with bass boost on, AD744A bass to my ears is 'just' shy of my imagined perfection. Oh, well. The other downside is that combined with increased detail and a bit less bass quantity, AD744A is less forgiving of poorly recorded material than AD744. Such is life..


NE5534

The cheap prior "default" opamp Xin used to ship SM v.3 with. Frankly, I didn't even try it before now due to my low expectation of this $1 opamp. But even in stock form, there are some pleasing aspects of this opamp. First off, you get very round, harmonic, forgiving, rich, musical presentation. Voices sound bigger and more robust. It's near impossible to hear irritating sibilants, "digititus" through this opamp. But there is obvious shortcomings in transparency and detail department in midranges. Treble is rolled off and soft, and bass is a bit ill-defined.

NE5534 Class A biased-- "NE5534A"

Once again, class A biasing seems to burn away a good amount of veil and haze. Transparency improves as well as detail. Treble becomes less soft and bass more tight and slamming. All this while retaining the pleasing roundness, richness, and KILLER tone and texture. With Ety4S, this might be the ideal match for many folks b/c while there is good amount of detail in class A mode, just enough becomes forgiving that those poor recordings with screechy highs and irritating sibilants become a lot more listenable. This is most obvious when you crank up the volume with Ety4S, something you can't do very much with something like OPA637 or AD744 class A. After a certain loudness level (pretty loud actually), a lot of recordings, even of decent average quality, become too grating. With NE5534A, you can crank up the volume all you want and grin In fact, I was able to crank up tracks like Bela and Fleckstones "Flight of Hippo" to hearing-damaging levels and Physically "FEEL" the bass in my intestines. Even a few minutes later, I can feel my skulls vibrating. Ety4S may have thin bass unamped and un-bassboosted, but when SMv.3 w/ NE5534A gives it the bassboost, Ety's can take it without a blink without distortions.

Downside is that AD744A still has more detail and resolution, especially at low to moderate volume levels.

Perhaps Xin could do his magic thing and provide 2 sets of different op-amps on his board with a switch to easily go back and forth?

Reply author: bernard
Replied on: 06/14/2005 04:24:07
Message:

Wow, that is one of the most informative post I've seen here so far, and that's to say a lot. Have you compared the AD744-A to the OP627 directly? Are they equivalent in neutrality, detail, soundstage, etc?
Thanks for taking the time to share this info.

Reply author: HiFlight
Replied on: 06/14/2005 19:42:39
Message:

I received my AD743 opamps today, and based on shan's earlier description of them, decided to compare them to my current favorite, the AD744. After much listening, using both my HD650s, and Etys, I have reached the conclusion that it sounds better overall than the 744!

It is best described as very smooth and open, with beautiful detail. Quite 3-dimensional. This opamp is a very low-noise FET designed for use in hydrophone and accelerometer pre-amps. No mention is made in the data sheet about audio use. Dynamic range is stated to be 130 db in the specs, which is very good.

The first indication that it was something special was when I listened to a recording of ocean surf. This has lots of white noise, and was rendered very realistically. The majority of my comparisons with my 744A was done while listening to CDs by Hector Olivera on the Roland Atelier AT90 organ. Stunning performances that include a wide range of digitally-rendered instrumentation.

I would definitely recommend a listen to this fine OpAmp! Thanks to Shan for first mentioning it in his post.

TECH NOTE:
When I removed my modified NE5534, to audition the 743, I mounted it on a Radio Shack low-profile IC socket, part #276-1995. These are only 59 cents for a pack of 2, and once you mount your modded chip on it, you can then just roll the entire socket without risking damage to the weak 5th pin on the chip.
The only thing you need to do to the socket is cut off pin 5 flush with the base.



Ron Kerlin
Ft Myers, FL, USA
SuperMacros, Cosmic Headroom, PortaCordaII, ER4S, ER4P, ER6i, EM3, UM2, AH-D6, HD650, AKG501, B&O A8, KSC-35

Reply author: Jon L
Replied on: 06/14/2005 21:06:59
Message:

You prefer AD743 to 744 or 744A? In specific, how would you compare the bass quantity?

Another op-amp to try, I guess. Can 743 biased to class A?

I still need to listen to AD829A, which seems to be Xin's latest fave.

Also, does anyone have any spare SE5543 to sell to me, so I can compare it to NE5543 in class A? SE5543 is reportedly much better by some here..

Reply author: JMcMasterJ
Replied on: 06/14/2005 21:19:58
Message:

I got my SE5534AN samples from here:
http://www.onsemi.com/

Reply author: jayray999
Replied on: 06/14/2005 21:20:59
Message:

Unfortunately AD743 cannot be used in Class A mode.

Reply author: zchhaanog
Replied on: 06/14/2005 23:57:37
Message:

A little listening to 5534-A. Overall, the sound is more integrated. The highs are defined more clear. The lows' amount seems less than 5534, but still flourishing. The lows to hights are synthesized more smoothly, less laid-back. A little faster than 5534.

Probably a good result. But I cannot say 5534-A still owns the king of the most comfy opamp to hearing.

Please be noticed, whenever you say you find a very very good opamp solution, I bet you could always find something alike in OPA627s. But real special opamp or feature is harder to find.



ZC

Reply author: shan
Replied on: 06/15/2005 00:31:41
Message:

onsemi se/sa5534(classA) have the finest sound especially mids,
they're the best 5534 IMO.
Voices are so sweet,epianos sound wet,juicy & beautiful,
basses are full & clear,no offence,very luxurious sound.
you won't think you are listening to a lifeless machine,(like 627/637 & most ops)
You can really imaging they are singing & playing instruments in front of you.

I tried other 5534s
(signetics & ti)they just cant compare to onsemi

Reply author: zchhaanog
Replied on: 06/15/2005 01:02:18
Message:

quote:

---

Originally posted by shan

......

I tried other 5534s
(signetics & ti)they just cant compare to onsemi

---

Reply author: zchhaanog
Replied on: 06/15/2005 01:08:45
Message:

Here's my diyed adapters, some spots are blured for it's too bloody :








I compared 5534-a with opa627, ad797, se5534an, ad8160.

Reply author: guido
Replied on: 06/15/2005 01:49:39
Message:

and what was the verdict of your comparison?

High end Audio; Norh Marble 9.0s, Kratos subs, QDS valve CD player, Black Widow Valve pre, Marchand active Xover, Audio Research D125, ASL Wave 8s and Norh LeAmps. [and 30Gb iPod with ER4P\S and Supermini] see www.delgi.com

Reply author: dave in gva
Replied on: 06/15/2005 05:54:18
Message:

Hi there....been following this thread with great interest as I will soon put in an order with Xin for the amp. I find I do a fair amount of travel and that's where I spend most of my time listening through headphones.

My source is a 3rd gen Ipod (that I will output from via either a pocketdock or sik din) and I have loved and listened to Etymotic ER-4S for the last 5 years or so. Fantastic things for people who find themselves in airplanes and travelling out of a single carry on bag . If I had one criticism it would be their bass rendition and I am hoping that the addition of Xin's amp (with the appropriate opamp) will address this.

I live in Switzerland and although I will be in the States next month it's not so straight forward for me to register on the websites to get free opamps because of a non-US mailing address. My take on the (14!) pages I've read through is that for the ety 4S phones the contenders that I should be considering are:

AD744 (Class A biased would be the way I'd go, I'd think)
AD743
NE5534 (also would go with as Class A)

Any others? This rolling of opamps sounds like great fun and the best way to make a very personal decision but I am a little out of the opamp loop over here and can't afford to spend a small fortune trying 8 different opamps.

So...any consensus on what opamps an ety4s listener should spring for? I suspect from what I've read that ultimately this comes down at least somewhat to one's taste in music. So, in terms of musical tastes I find myself listening to a fair amount of relatively well produced and recorded music that emphasizes acoustic/electric guitar, some synthesized keyboard instruments and strong vocal presences....Peter Gabriel/Dave Matthews Band/Daniel Lanois are all examples of artists I enjoy. Don't want to give the impression I only go for male artists - among females I would add Sarah MacLachlan, Diana Krall, Sinead O'Connor, and Emmylou Harris.

All for now, sorry for the length but first time poster...


*************
Dave

Reply author: smith
Replied on: 06/15/2005 06:46:45
Message:

Is anyone using the default opamp - AD829 ? How do they sound ?

Dean

Reply author: zchhaanog
Replied on: 06/15/2005 06:50:37
Message:

quote:

---

Originally posted by guido

and what was the verdict of your comparison?

High end Audio; Norh Marble 9.0s, Kratos subs, QDS valve CD player, Black Widow Valve pre, Marchand active Xover, Audio Research D125, ASL Wave 8s and Norh LeAmps. [and 30Gb iPod with ER4P\S and Supermini] see www.delgi.com

---

Reply author: jayray999
Replied on: 06/15/2005 06:59:36
Message:

Dave

I know you are in Europe but some of this may still work.

Why don't you go to TI's website http://www.ti.com and see if you are eligible for free samples for OPA227, OPA228, OPA627, OPA637, OPA604, OPA134 etc. TI will not only ship abroad free but pays customs duties where necessary!

You can try to get LM6171 samples from NATIONAL at http://www.national.com

From ANALOG (http://www.analog.com/productSelection/orderSamples/index.html and click the "Quick Order Entry" link) you can get AD743, AD744, and AD829 samples. They allow only 2 of each per order so you may have to order twice if you want more. Additionally they have weekly restrictions on total number of chips you can get as samples. Samples are shipped free worldwide using UPS, TNT or DHL.

For the various flavors of the 5534 you can visit ON Semiconductors, http://www.onsemi.com/ but unlike TI and NATIONAL or ANALOG, they will charge a shipping fee for free samples. So you may have to pay international shipping.

Make sure whatever you order as a sample (or buy) is DIP not SOIC.

A notable exception to the above rule is the AD8610 from ANALOG (http://www.analog.com) which is only available in SOIC packaging and hence you must solder it to a SOIC-DIP converter and plug the converter into the SM-3's sockets. zchaanog's friend (niexu@yahoo.com) sells great SOIC-DIP converters and these converters also allow you to create the CLASS A mod for AD744, 5534 and AD829 without bending the chip's 5th pin.

Note: This is an update of an earlier post of mine.

Reply author: dave in gva
Replied on: 06/15/2005 07:57:31
Message:

Cool. Thanks Jayray! I'll check out those links and see what I can get in the way of Euro opamp samples....could be like Christmas.

If I can get opamp samples over here in Switzerland it seems to me the initial opamps can be whatever Xin's default is without any extra cost.

One thing I'm not too clear on is some of the discussion I've seen for pin adapter modules for some of the Class A opamps. Not sure if it was a Radio Shack part number or something from one of the group here, but it does seem to me that there was another part that looked pretty good at making the opamp rolling go easy. Anything else I should be picking up on my States trip?

Thanks again for the good news on Euro samples Jayray,

*************
Dave

Reply author: HiFlight
Replied on: 06/15/2005 09:52:31
Message:

Dave..

I submitted the post that listed the Radio Shack low-profile DIP socket as one that would work to mount the modified chip on. You can then install and remove the socketed opamp without fear of damaging the weak bent #5 lead.

Part number: 276-1995. Cost was 59 cents, U.S.

I would mount one set of each of the opamps that can be biased class A. 5534, 744, 829. Then you can have fun trying to determine which one you like best!!!!



Ron Kerlin
Ft Myers, FL, USA
SuperMacros, Cosmic Headroom, PortaCordaII, ER4S, ER4P, ER6i, EM3, UM2, AH-D6, HD650, AKG501, B&O A8, KSC-35

Reply author: dave in gva
Replied on: 06/15/2005 11:55:44
Message:

Great Ron, thanks. Your posts have consistently been very informative on this thread. I'll be in New York City and aim for a Radio Shack likely to have a good stock of Part No. 276-1995. At that price I can scoop a dozen or so as we don't have Rat Shack over here.

With your Ety 4S's which opamp are you liking these days?

*************
Dave

Reply author: HiFlight
Replied on: 06/15/2005 14:45:13
Message:

Dave...

I compared the AD743 vs the AD744A side-by-side with my Etys, then swapped the 744As for my socketed 5534As. After listening to a variety of different orchestral and vocal samples (no rock!), I really like the AD743 best. It places you several rows back instead of in the orchestra pit. Detail and soundstage are very nice.

As you know, depending on the source, the Etys can be somewhat strident at the higher frequencies. I found the AD744A to draw attention to this characteristic. The 5534A sounds very nice, but immerses you more in the soundfield than does the AD743. I think that the 5534A would probably be more impressive than either the 743 or 744A when listening to rock or other high-impact music.

With my Etys, I can listen to the 743 for long periods of time without noticing any stridency or sibilance.

It is just a very musical OpAmp. Seems make each note stand out with a bit of space around it. Tonally, it is balanced, without emphasizing any part of the musical spectrum.

I have listened to all 3 with my HD650s, Etys, and UM2s, and as of now, I think I am listening more to the AD743 and enjoying it immensely.

That said, each person has their own taste in sound, as in art, food, etc. Very difficult to say that one of these fine opamps are the best. Just too subjective to do that. If you can pick up a set of AD743s, I would think you would find them to be complementary to your Etys!

Ron Kerlin
Ft Myers, FL, USA
SuperMacros, Cosmic Headroom, PortaCordaII, ER4S, ER4P, ER6i, EM3, UM2, AH-D6, HD650, AKG501, B&O A8, KSC-35

Reply author: goto2003
Replied on: 06/16/2005 01:05:58
Message:

I have been very happy and impressed with the TI NE5534's until this afternoon when I got a pair of SA5534AN's. Wow, what'a difference, much better defined low and high under Class A. It's too costy to pass it up! BTW, SE5534's also a gem.

Reply author: Xin
Replied on: 06/16/2005 01:22:25
Message:

goto, SA5534 or SE5534? Is it made by On Semiconductor?

Reply author: goto2003
Replied on: 06/16/2005 01:37:05
Message:

Yes, they are from On Semiconductor. I am listening to SA5534AN, and SE5534an's sound almost the same, but more current friendly.

Reply author: shan
Replied on: 06/16/2005 02:00:11
Message:

With se/sa5534,music can really move you soul...incredible.

Reply author: Xin
Replied on: 06/16/2005 02:08:30
Message:

The SE and SA just have wider temperature ranges than NE, have you tried the NE?

Reply author: goto2003
Replied on: 06/16/2005 03:41:32
Message:

Not yet.If NE and SA/SE sound the same, then 5534's from difference vendors could sound very different.

Reply author: Miguel
Replied on: 06/16/2005 04:16:14
Message:

I don't know if there is any sound difference between the NJR/RJC and the ONSEMI 5534s, but it seems lots of people consider the ONSEMI SE/SA5534AN as the best sounding NE5534s. I would like to try myself but I am having difficulties with ordering in ONSEMI's site (it doesn't accept my card). Could anyone that reviewed both (NJR NE5534D & ON SA5534AN) post his impressions?

Reply author: alanz
Replied on: 06/16/2005 07:49:22
Message:

I used the RadioShack 8 pin retention sockets (part 276-1995) last night installing the NE5534P into my SM3.

Very easy to do... available at my local RS store, and CHEAP ($.59 for a pair)

I got a spare set of sockets... would there be any likely difference between the NE5534P and the SA5534AP using the Class A mod?

Reply author: Skorpio
Replied on: 06/16/2005 07:50:14
Message:

quote:

---

Originally posted by jayray999

From ANALOG (http://www.analog.com/productSelection/orderSamples/index.html and click the "Quick Order Entry" link) you can get AD743, AD744, and AD829 samples.
[CUT]

---

Reply author: jamato8
Replied on: 06/16/2005 08:52:28
Message:

I noticed about 10 months ago, when using the 744K vs. the lower temp opamp, that I preferred the sound of the K version. I use three of the 744's in my power supply for my home dac. I bought the 744K not with the idea they would sound better but just out of curiosity. After having them in for a while I noticed a small improvement in the sound. The only difference being the temp rating of the chip has me wondering why it would to my ear sound better. Since it would have to have possibly different materials in the manufacture or different controls maybe this allows for greater latitude before shifts in performance (micro changes?).

John

Reply author: jayray999
Replied on: 06/16/2005 09:08:25
Message:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Skorpio

quote:

---

Originally posted by jayray999

From ANALOG (http://www.analog.com/productSelection/orderSamples/index.html and click the "Quick Order Entry" link) you can get AD743, AD744, and AD829 samples.
[CUT]

---

I 'd like to have some free samples, too.
May you please tell me the exact things I have to order?
Which models of 744, 743 and 829 from AD and which 5534 from ONSEMI?

TIA,
-Marco

---

Reply author: jayray999
Replied on: 06/16/2005 09:19:29
Message:

quote:

---

Originally posted by jamato8

I noticed about 10 months ago, when using the 744K vs. the lower temp opamp, that I preferred the sound of the K version. I use three of the 744's in my power supply for my home dac. I bought the 744K not with the idea they would sound better but just out of curiosity. After having them in for a while I noticed a small improvement in the sound. The only difference being the temp rating of the chip has me wondering why it would to my ear sound better. Since it would have to have possibly different materials in the manufacture or different controls maybe this allows for greater latitude before shifts in performance (micro changes?).

John

---

Reply author: Skorpio
Replied on: 06/16/2005 09:29:06
Message:

Thank you very much, jayray999 :-)

Now I have to choose some of them and see if they ship to Italy :-)

Reply author: jamato8
Replied on: 06/16/2005 09:31:00
Message:

I was not expecting any change and sound was not even a consideration. In a way this is a blind test but one where I was not expecting anthing except possibly a longer life from the opamp. I have also found that sound needs time to settle in and that even in a blind test time is often required. I have liked the sound of something only to find out that after switching back to whatever I had been using (with a month or more having elapsed) that the original sound was preferred.

John

Reply author: lexnasa
Replied on: 06/16/2005 10:25:16
Message:

Despite declaring love for AD744KNZ in class A, I am now really enjoying SE5534AN in class A. Although there is less detail, it is more musical, and much less wearing over long listening sessions. I can also now hear the noise in AD744 that Shan referred to earlier... the SE5534AN-A is much cleaner. Haven't yet tried AD743, waiting for samples to arrive.

EAC>FAAC (1.24.1) -w -q 275 --obj-type LC --tns>iPod Photo 60Gb>PocketDock>Earcandy>SM3 AD744KN class A>CD3000/Prophonic 2XS

Reply author: Xin
Replied on: 06/16/2005 10:36:21
Message:

As nobody has compared TI SA vs. ONSEMI SA/SE vs. ONSEMI NE, so it is still a question: it is ONSEMI better than TI, or SA/SE better than NE?

I've ordered all of them, let's see.

Even they do sound the best, the problem is no where to buy these ONSEMI SA/SE, except getting samples.

Reply author: jayray999
Replied on: 06/16/2005 11:05:46
Message:

Am I imagining or has TI stopped providing samples from its website?

Reply author: jayray999
Replied on: 06/16/2005 13:33:11
Message:

quote:

---

Originally posted by HiFlight


TECH NOTE:
When I removed my modified NE5534, to audition the 743, I mounted it on a Radio Shack low-profile IC socket, part #276-1995. These are only 59 cents for a pack of 2, and once you mount your modded chip on it, you can then just roll the entire socket without risking damage to the weak 5th pin on the chip.
The only thing you need to do to the socket is cut off pin 5 flush with the base.

Ron Kerlin
Ft Myers, FL, USA
SuperMacros, Cosmic Headroom, PortaCordaII, ER4S, ER4P, ER6i, EM3, UM2, AH-D6, HD650, AKG501, B&O A8, KSC-35

---

Reply author: jayray999
Replied on: 06/16/2005 13:43:20
Message:

quote:

---

Originally posted by jayray999

[quote]Originally posted by HiFlight


TECH NOTE:
When I removed my modified NE5534, to audition the 743, I mounted it on a Radio Shack low-profile IC socket, part #276-1995. These are only 59 cents for a pack of 2, and once you mount your modded chip on it, you can then just roll the entire socket without risking damage to the weak 5th pin on the chip.
The only thing you need to do to the socket is cut off pin 5 flush with the base.

Ron Kerlin
Ft Myers, FL, USA
SuperMacros, Cosmic Headroom, PortaCordaII, ER4S, ER4P, ER6i, EM3, UM2, AH-D6, HD650, AKG501, B&O A8, KSC-35

---

Reply author: HiFlight
Replied on: 06/16/2005 14:41:13
Message:

Jayray...

The sockets I referenced were not as shown in the picture in the previous post. The sockets I got had straight legs that were just the size of those on a dip opamp. After I mounted the opamp, the socket inserted into the SM with no more pressure than a chip alone.

Even with the connecting wires for the 4-switch option, there was no difficulty in inserting the socket or closing the boards to fit back into the case. As an added bonus, the legs of the socket are already about the perfect fit to install, no need to squeeze them together on a hard surface as is necessary with an opamp by itself.

Ron Kerlin
Ft Myers, FL, USA
SuperMacros, Cosmic Headroom, PortaCordaII, ER4S, ER4P, ER6i, EM3, UM2, AH-D6, HD650, AKG501, B&O A8, KSC-35

Reply author: HiFlight
Replied on: 06/16/2005 14:48:24
Message:

Jayray...

The sockets I referenced were not as shown in the picture in the previous post. The sockets I got had straight legs that were just the size of those on a dip opamp. After I mounted the opamp, the socket inserted into the SM with no more pressure than a chip alone.

Even with the connecting wires for the 4-switch option, there was no difficulty in inserting the socket or closing the boards to fit back into the case. As an added bonus, the legs of the socket are already about the perfect fit to install, no need to squeeze them together on a hard surface as is necessary with an opamp by itself.

Ron Kerlin
Ft Myers, FL, USA
SuperMacros, Cosmic Headroom, PortaCordaII, ER4S, ER4P, ER6i, EM3, UM2, AH-D6, HD650, AKG501, B&O A8, KSC-35

Reply author: Xin
Replied on: 06/16/2005 15:37:38
Message:

These RS sockets are ideal - very short, a very good thing for SM as the wires are not pressed too hard.

Reply author: jayray999
Replied on: 06/16/2005 16:03:47
Message:

Thanks Ron and Dr. Xin. I just typed the part number in the RS website and saw that picture. That's what misled me.

Reply author: HiFlight
Replied on: 06/16/2005 18:03:51
Message:

Sorry about the duplicate post, but I just wanted to repost the Radio Shack part number for the low-profile dip sockets I used, as they look entirely different from the picture posted earlier.

Part number: 276-1995 "8-Pin* Low-Profile IC Socket"

Ron Kerlin
Ft Myers, FL, USA
SuperMacros, Cosmic Headroom, PortaCordaII, ER4S, ER4P, ER6i, EM3, UM2, AH-D6, HD650, AKG501, B&O A8, KSC-35

Reply author: jayray999
Replied on: 06/16/2005 20:20:10
Message:

quote:

---

Originally posted by HiFlight

Sorry about the duplicate post, but I just wanted to repost the Radio Shack part number for the low-profile dip sockets I used, as they look entirely different from the picture posted earlier.

Part number: 276-1995 "8-Pin* Low-Profile IC Socket"

Ron Kerlin
Ft Myers, FL, USA
SuperMacros, Cosmic Headroom, PortaCordaII, ER4S, ER4P, ER6i, EM3, UM2, AH-D6, HD650, AKG501, B&O A8, KSC-35

---

Reply author: jamato8
Replied on: 06/16/2005 20:33:25
Message:

Ok, now I'm confused. So the picture, that is now gone but is the one I looked at on the RS site, is not what you really get, though I have seen these at my local electronics place. What you really get if you go to RS is a socket that has straight legs and not ones that are meant to be soldered to a pcb. Right? Friendly price,I must agree. I used to have fun at RS but now you can hardly find anything for the diy person. The inexpensive carbon volume controls they have are actually very good, as a side note.

John

Reply author: HiFlight
Replied on: 06/16/2005 20:46:31
Message:

John...

You have it right...the picture on the RS website must be incorrect, or an older version, as the one hanging on the racks at RS all have the straight legs, whether they are the 8 or 16 pin sockets.

They are also a lower profile, and the opamp fits very neatly into it.

Ron Kerlin
Ft Myers, FL, USA
SuperMacros, Cosmic Headroom, PortaCordaII, ER4S, ER4P, ER6i, EM3, UM2, AH-D6, HD650, AKG501, B&O A8, KSC-35

Reply author: Xin
Replied on: 06/16/2005 21:35:23
Message:

RS does have a sockets like that. Actually they are indeed quite the same. For the one showing in the picture, you may simply straighten the pins out.

Reply author: dave in gva
Replied on: 06/16/2005 22:17:05
Message:

Wow. Had meetings all day yesterday and couldn't get to this thread. Imagine my surprise to see 2 whole pages of useful comments/experience. Ron, thanks again for your post - your experiences with your Ety 4S and different opamps is very helpful for me in terms of deciding the samples I'll get.

Thanks guys, this is super stuff.

So long for now from a bright and sunny Geneva,

*************
Dave

Reply author: zchhaanog
Replied on: 06/17/2005 09:29:41
Message:

Hi Ron,

Could you let me know, with the RS socket, how do you (if necessary) solder the pin 5, 6 together and bend the pin 6 of the opamp?

I mean you still need to bend the pin 6 of the opamp chip (and perhaps cut the pin 5 of the socket), right?

From the RS picture, I see it is not likely to bend pin 5 of the socket and solder it to socket's pin 6? Just need to find a neat way to do that.


Thanks a lot!


ZC

quote:

---

Originally posted by HiFlight

John...

You have it right...the picture on the RS website must be incorrect, or an older version, as the one hanging on the racks at RS all have the straight legs, whether they are the 8 or 16 pin sockets.

They are also a lower profile, and the opamp fits very neatly into it.

Ron Kerlin
Ft Myers, FL, USA
SuperMacros, Cosmic Headroom, PortaCordaII, ER4S, ER4P, ER6i, EM3, UM2, AH-D6, HD650, AKG501, B&O A8, KSC-35

---

Reply author: HiFlight
Replied on: 06/17/2005 10:16:39
Message:

ZC....

When using the RS socket, just remove pin 6 of the opamp by bending it back and forth. Break it off as close to the plastic as possible. Then, using tweezers, or very fine needlenose pliers, bend the pin 5 over to the pin 6 location, then down so it will go into the pin 6 opening in the socket. Note that when bending pin 5 back and down, it will be very close to where you broke off pin 6. Just make sure it doesn't touch the stub of 6.

You can then just press the opamp into the socket, as you would insert it into the SM socket if you were not using the RS socket. Make sure that the bent leg of pin 5 is firmly seated into the socket. Use a very small screwdriver tip or such to press the pins into the socket until the opamp is firmly seated on the socket.

I cut off the unused pin 5 of the RS socket just to have one less pin to align with the SM socket. You now have a sturdily-mounted opamp that you can install and remove without fear of damaging the weak bent pin 5.

If I could figure out how to post a photo of the chip and socket, I would do so. Would probably be a big help to everyone. Earlier in this thread, Dr Xin posted a picture of how to bend the opamp pins for class A operation. This is exactly how it is done to mount the opamp on the RS socket, except that I just remove pin 6 instead of bending it over the top of the opamp.

Ron Kerlin
Ft Myers, FL, USA
SuperMacros, Cosmic Headroom, PortaCordaII, ER4S, ER4P, ER6i, EM3, UM2, AH-D6, HD650, AKG501, B&O A8, KSC-35

Reply author: rblanco
Replied on: 06/17/2005 11:53:06
Message:

quote:

---

Originally posted by jayray999
ANALOG: AD743JNZ, AD829JNZ, AD797ANZ, AD797AR, AD8610BRZ, AD744JNZ, AD744KNZ ONSEMI: SE5534N, NE5534N, NE5534AN, SA5534AN, SE5534AN TI: OPA134PA, OPA227PA, OPA228P, OPA604AP, OPA627AP, OPA627BP, OPA637AP, OPA637BP, THS4061CD NATIONAL: LM6171BIN

---

Reply author: Xin
Replied on: 06/17/2005 13:47:56
Message:

Ron and others, here is the link for uploading pictures for this forum:

http://www.fixup.net/upload

Then the link to the picture will be:

http://www.fixup.net/upload/files/xxx.jpg

If the file to be uploaded is too large, it may fail.

Reply author: HiFlight
Replied on: 06/17/2005 14:52:48
Message:

The following link should be a picture to better visualize the use of the Radio Shack socket(#276-1995) for rolling Class A opamps.

http:\\www.fixup.net\upload\files\RSsocket.jpg





Ron Kerlin
Ft Myers, FL, USA
SuperMacros, Cosmic Headroom, PortaCordaII, ER4S, ER4P, ER6i, EM3, UM2, AH-D6, HD650, AKG501, B&O A8, KSC-35

Reply author: HiFlight
Replied on: 06/17/2005 15:09:07
Message:

Dr Xin...

I guess I do not know how to properly make the desired uploaded picture appear in my post, as you did with your photo of the modified opamp, and zc did with his adapters..

I did upload the picture ok, but the link didn't fully underline, so you can only see the picture by cutting and pasting.

I also uploaded one with incorrect nomenclature, so you may delete that from the list of uploaded files. It is: "ClassA RS socket.jpg"

I could not find a way to delete it myself. The photo that should be saved is the one called: "RSsocket.jpg"

Maybe my electronics skills are better than my computer skills!!!

Ron Kerlin
Ft Myers, FL, USA
SuperMacros, Cosmic Headroom, PortaCordaII, ER4S, ER4P, ER6i, EM3, UM2, AH-D6, HD650, AKG501, B&O A8, KSC-35

Reply author: Xin
Replied on: 06/17/2005 15:25:37
Message:

Ron, just add "img" and "/img" before and after the link. Replace the " "with [].

Reply author: HiFlight
Replied on: 06/17/2005 15:42:49
Message:

Here is the RadioShack socket with the class-A modified opamp installed:


Ron Kerlin
Ft Myers, FL, USA
SuperMacros, Cosmic Headroom, PortaCordaII, ER4S, ER4P, ER6i, EM3, UM2, AH-D6, HD650, AKG501, B&O A8, KSC-35

Reply author: HiFlight
Replied on: 06/17/2005 15:46:43
Message:

Once more, then I give up!



Ron Kerlin
Ft Myers, FL, USA
SuperMacros, Cosmic Headroom, PortaCordaII, ER4S, ER4P, ER6i, EM3, UM2, AH-D6, HD650, AKG501, B&O A8, KSC-35

Reply author: HiFlight
Replied on: 06/17/2005 15:51:30
Message:

rblanco..

Regarding your post about the labelling of opamps, I believe the first letter following the type number is heat range specification, second indicates type of package (ie: dip, soic)
and the 3rd (Z) indicates lead-free.

Ron Kerlin
Ft Myers, FL, USA
SuperMacros, Cosmic Headroom, PortaCordaII, ER4S, ER4P, ER6i, EM3, UM2, AH-D6, HD650, AKG501, B&O A8, KSC-35

Reply author: jamato8
Replied on: 06/17/2005 20:27:49
Message:

I just got the SA5534AN and SE and I am listening to the SA. It is smoooooth. It helps to produce a very clean sound. As it breaks in I will have more of an idea but so far in class A it sounds very promising.

John

Reply author: shan
Replied on: 06/18/2005 06:01:52
Message:

Just did a quick comparison.SA seems slightly better than SE :0

SA is smoother,cleaner than SE,soundstage is wider & deeper,
sound is more defined.(because of the higher PSRR?)
The difference is rather obvious.Both of them are mind blowing.
I guess my NE is on the road.can't wait it to come :D

Now I understand completely..more expensive doesn't mean better,
After listening to ON SA/SE5534 & AD797,
I almost forgot TI's 627/637 & their mediocre NE5534.
TI disappointed me so much

Reply author: StevieDvd
Replied on: 06/18/2005 06:38:00
Message:

I've hopefully got some sample SA5534AN & SE5534AN coming in for trial so I'd appreciate any suggestions on which are the best.

I have AD797 fitted as default and OPA627,OPA604AP & NE5334P as spares and would like to keep the opamp rolling to a sensible minimum.

I'd omitted to ask Xin to fit the OPA627 so when I saw them in the bag with the NE5534 I had to open the SM to check what was actually installed as default (AD797).

I'll be happy to do the class A trick to any of the above but only have a few adaptors to hand so perhaps a 3 way test (OPA727, AD797 & 5534 modded).

Can either the AD797 or OPA627 be modded?

Perhaps other UK owners could use any of the opamps I don't need once I've found my preference. SO what opamps are you Brits using or looking for?

Steve, UK

Reply author: HiFlight
Replied on: 06/18/2005 14:42:52
Message:

Steve...

The AD744, AD829 and flavors of 5534 can be used for the class A bias mod. I am sure that others might be discovered in the future, but for now, that is it. 797 and 627 cannot be modded. Pin 5 on the Datasheet diagram must be labelled "compensation" to be used for class A bias.

Ron Kerlin
Ft Myers, FL, USA
SuperMacros, Cosmic Headroom, PortaCordaII, ER4S, ER4P, ER6i, EM3, UM2, AH-D6, HD650, AKG501, B&O A8, KSC-35

Reply author: zxkaw
Replied on: 06/18/2005 20:48:37
Message:

quote:

---

Originally posted by irvin

Those of us who have played chess with death and lost (fortunately to be resurrected by Xin) rely on those of you with nimble fingers and golden ears to advise and keep the number of rematches to a minimum. At least it's not as dangerous as some of the activities being discussed on the UE10/bike thread.

---

Reply author: shan
Replied on: 06/18/2005 21:04:00
Message:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Xin

As nobody has compared TI SA vs. ONSEMI SA/SE vs. ONSEMI NE, so it is still a question: it is ONSEMI better than TI, or SA/SE better than NE?

I've ordered all of them, let's see.

Even they do sound the best, the problem is no where to buy these ONSEMI SA/SE, except getting samples.

---

Reply author: StevieDvd
Replied on: 06/19/2005 17:21:22
Message:

I bought a set of allen keys (hex wrenches) and some dip/dil sockets and put the NE5534P in class A mode and will run them in for a bit. I was able to do this without soldering anything by bending/breaking the unused pin/legs off.

First attempt resulted in one channel only but only due to a poorly seated adapter,

Now for some serious listening. If all goes well I'll do a more tidy job when the omni opamps arrive.

Reply author: jamato8
Replied on: 06/21/2005 07:53:35
Message:

Has anyone done a count as to how many opamps can be used in the SuperMacro? I notice on HeadFi there are a few more of the AD types as in the 843 and a few others. I have the AD829 coming today. Having used tubes for years I never thought I would get into opamps like the past tube rolling I have done. Very interesting times these are.

John

Reply author: lexnasa
Replied on: 06/21/2005 08:09:12
Message:

John, good point, I have not seen any mention of LM6171, also has anyone tested LT1028?

EAC>FAAC (1.24.1) -w -q 275 --obj-type LC --tns>iPod Photo 60Gb>PocketDock>Earcandy>SM3 SA5534AN class A>CD3000/Prophonic 2XS

Reply author: shan
Replied on: 06/21/2005 08:30:13
Message:

The only good of 843 is brightness,
843 won't improve sound quality alot but it change the sound quite a bit.
Sounds great with dark sound headphone.
when using er4,the high is too offensive.
I can't listen to my er4 more than 10 minutes when using 843

Reply author: StevieDvd
Replied on: 06/21/2005 09:15:59
Message:

The LM6171 is mentioned on http://www.fixup.net/products/macro/details.htm but I'd be wary as I know this can be a tricky opamp. I have them fitted in my WNA desktop amp.

Reply author: Jon L
Replied on: 06/21/2005 17:25:20
Message:

Here's some additional impressions I added to my original post to cover SA5534 A and other non-Ety headphones used.


ADDENDUM

SA5534AN class A

Biased to class A, SA5534AN sounds very good. A word of warning for class A biasing fans. SA5534AN pins are the most brittle of all the op-amps I've tried. I was unable to bend the pin away without it breaking off, no matter what. No such problems with opamps like AD744 and even NE5534, so just different manufacturing technique/material it seems. I haven't directly A-B'd SA5534 class A to NE5534 class A, but SA5534 does seem a bit clearer. What is surprising is how close SA5534 A sounds to OPA627 in A-B comparison. Before class A, NE/SA5534 sounds significantly less transparent and less detailed than OPA627, but it catches up with OPA627 after class A biasing. Both SA5534 and OPA627 have rich, detailed, open sound with a sense of fullness across the ranges. Both are great choices with Ety's.

AD744 class A Revisited

I've finally done some comparisons with AKG K340 and AKG k1000. Yes, you read that correctly. K1000 was driven by SM v.3 via my DIY 4-pin XLR to mini adapter. Both are punishing load, K340 being 400 Ohm! load and K1000 being 120 Ohm load with sensitivity in 70's. SM v.3 drove both to moderate levels pretty well, actually, but beyond that distortions set in.

Anyway, with these other phones, I've now decided AD744 class A is my favorite. Even compared to OPA627 or SA5534 class A, there's just more resolution and clarity. There's sense of "freshness" and the feeling that you can infinitely zoom in on instruments or parts of music and see everything. The small issue of diminished bass quantity with Ety's when AD744 is biased class A is not an issue b/c these full-size cans interpret that as even more solid, agile bass. That sense of fullness with OPA627, SA5534 now seems to me like artificial fluffyness overlaid on music.

As long as I don't betray the volume knob with these phones, I'm getting some real serious high-end sound quali

ty out of these phones. Stay tuned for AD829, etc.

Reply author: jamato8
Replied on: 06/21/2005 18:51:15
Message:

I haven't looked at the layout of the 829's which I just got. Do you know if they can be biased into class A? I noticed also that the pins are very brittle on the SA5534 but I was able to bend them, though very carefully. Since they are brittle it would be better to solder a jumber anyway because I don't like to send information through a stressed conductor if it can be avoided.

What is interesting about all these comparisons is that I have been using the AD744 in my 3 power supplies for my home dac for about 4 years. I prefered these to everything else. But I preffered the K version and I find this true in the V3 as well.

John

Reply author: HiFlight
Replied on: 06/21/2005 20:13:59
Message:

John...

The AD829 can be biased Class A. My samples of it should arrive in a day or two.

http://www.ociw.edu/instrumentation/ccd/parts/AD829.pdf

My pins on my ON SA5534ANs did not seem particularly brittle. I had to work a bit to break off the #6 pins. Maybe differences in lot numbers??? I would think they would all be about the same.

I still like the 744A best, I think. I also very much enjoyed the AD743. They worked very well with my Etys.

After equalizing all my headphones, they sound remarkably the same with the same opamps. I just set my usual listening level, then equalized each to flatten the Fletcher-Munson curve (make the audio frequency levels SOUND the same to my ears) using a freeware audio sweep generator. To someone else, they no doubt would not sound the same, due to individual hearing response curves.

BTW, my AD744's are the KNZ flavor. I didn't really find the AD843 very remarkable one way or the other. I thought the AD743 sounded lots more natural.

Ron Kerlin
Ft Myers, FL, USA
SuperMacros, Cosmic Headroom, PortaCordaII, ER4S, ER4P, ER6i, EM3, UM2, AH-D6, HD650, AKG501, B&O A8, KSC-35

Reply author: Miguel
Replied on: 06/23/2005 02:29:04
Message:

I would also like to thanks Ron for his great opamp reviews. As you own an iRiver H120, SM3 and UM2s, which opamp do you think that have more synergy with this setup? And which one do you think is cleaner, more detailed, with as low noise as possible and a bit on the bright side? (because the only thing I don't like from UM2's is its treble roll-off, I find myself always pulling up the treble in the eq settings)

BTW, about the people that noticed some hiss when using UM2s, try using a 30-35 ohms impedance. To my ears, it doesn't change UM2's sound as 75 ohms do (for bad) and the hiss is almost not present.

Also, could you please tell us with more detail on that technique to equalize headphones? I heard that human ear is much more sensitive to the midrange than lows/highs, so trying to obtain a flat response equalizing the headphone's response curve (if provided by the manufacturer) just doesn't work, and everyone's ears are different. That way you mentioned seems to be ideal (adjust freq levels to sound the same to your own ears) but no idea on how to do it.

Thanks

Reply author: Xin
Replied on: 06/23/2005 03:04:30
Message:

This is the latest version of the output bypass sockets:



The socket is from Digikey A400-ND, 8 PIN SOLDER TAIL DIP SOCKET. It is very short. Solder carefully together the base of pin 5 and 6, without solder going on pins. Then plug in the opamp with pin 6 left out, as showing above. This way, no bending, no damage to the opamps.

BTW, that socket found by Guido is not good - the pins are too big to fit in.

Got my ON Semi 5534 samples. The SA is the perfect audio opamp so far - warm, smooth, space, separation, air, detail, solid bass, it has them all. NE is close, but lacks of the separation and clarification of SA. SE is too cold and hard to me.

Reply author: shan
Replied on: 06/23/2005 03:43:15
Message:

After 2-3 days run-in,ON's NE is my favor op now...
sweet mid,it's as musical as SA now..smooth sound & high is more clarity than SA,
the sound improved A LOT after run-in.
New ON NE sux,sounds even worse than my TI ne5534,but it really kick ass now.

SA sounds less smooth after run-in(2-3 days)
warm sound,but seems lacking some high..
I got 2 pair ON NE & SA,that's why I can tell the defference...
Please give them some time before making conclusion
FYI

Reply author: guido
Replied on: 06/23/2005 05:21:34
Message:

What make is the 5534D that I received installed in my SM3?
It just says 5534D JRC 4029B

AM really liking AD743 with both my Etys and HD650s...could this be he best all-rounder?

High end Audio; Norh Marble 9.0s, Kratos subs, QDS valve CD player, Black Widow Valve pre, Marchand active Xover, Audio Research D125, ASL Wave 8s and Norh LeAmps. [ iPodMini with ER4P\S - HD650 and SM3] see www.delgi.com and www.olympicguns.com

Reply author: Wombat_VC
Replied on: 06/23/2005 07:54:06
Message:

Xin,

Have yet to receive my A-modules I ordered a couple of weeks ago, will they be the latest version?


* * * * *

Apple iPod (3G 40GB) -> Xin SuperMacro-3 (AD744KNZ) -> Sennheiser HD600 (Equinox)

Reply author: lexnasa
Replied on: 06/23/2005 08:03:57
Message:

SE5534AN and SA5534AN sound completely different. Both have burnt in for 3+ days, with the SAs sounding progressively worse and the SEs progressively better as they burnt in IMHO. The SAs have extended top and bottom end, much like the OPA627s or AD797s, the SEs are more controlled, tonally accurate, but less extended, like the OPA604s. I can listen to the SEs for many hours without fatigue, the SAs only for an hour. I recommend OPA604 fans to try the SE5534ANs. Anyone else completed testing SA vs SE vs NE?

EAC>FAAC (1.24.1) -w -q 275 --obj-type LC --tns>iPod Photo 60Gb>PocketDock>Earcandy>SM3 SE5534AN class A>CD3000/Prophonic 2XS

Reply author: guido
Replied on: 06/23/2005 09:14:15
Message:

so what do I have..??? 5534D ???
Anyone?

High end Audio; Norh Marble 9.0s, Kratos subs, QDS valve CD player, Black Widow Valve pre, Marchand active Xover, Audio Research D125, ASL Wave 8s and Norh LeAmps. [ iPodMini with ER4P\S - HD650 and SM3] see www.delgi.com and www.olympicguns.com

Reply author: shan
Replied on: 06/23/2005 10:43:30
Message:

NE sounds harsh at the beggining
after 3 days,it opened up suddenly,very nice.

Please forget my previous SE/SA review,
I must say, they are getting worst after burn in....strange

Reply author: gchang
Replied on: 06/23/2005 11:02:54
Message:

Guido,

I believe that those are NE5534s....

Regarding the distinctions between all of these versions of the 5534, IMHO, there might be no definitive judgement about which sound better - NE, SA, or SE.

A batch of chips are manufactured, then sorted and labled as results of post manufacturing tests - those chips that test above the benchmark gets a new lable.

Many of the tests that determine these lables have little or nothing to do with audio, so it is not a surprise if a particular "common" NE5534 sounds better than a particular "chosen" SA5534.

It's like taking groups that were sorted by hair length and we are trying to make judgements about how long each group's legs are - they are not necessarily related....

There once was a "chosen for audio" 5534 - it was sold by a company named Analog System in Arizona (USA), and they took 5534s, tested them for audio performance, and renamed the chip the MA332. I checked with my source, and they told me that AS has long gone out of business. DRAT!

Reply author: Admin
Replied on: 06/23/2005 12:51:03
Message:

Guido, those NJM5534Ds are made by JRC, New Japan Radio, and JRC (NJM) opamps are the mostly used ones in hi-end audio, cheap but good sound. The $300 simple Grado RA-1 amp uses NJM4556.

Wombat, I was waiting for the best sockets, will be shipped shortly.

Reply author: jamato8
Replied on: 06/23/2005 13:20:40
Message:

I am listening to the AD829 in the jumpered postion and so far the sound is very positive. At this point it is more detailed than most other amps I have listened to with a nice feel for the recording venue. Only time will tell if the sound gets better or worse.

John

Reply author: HiFlight
Replied on: 06/23/2005 15:42:21
Message:

Today I removed my SA5534(A)s which I have been auditioning for the past several days. They sounded OK, but not remarkable, especially compared to the AD744A. I then installed my socketed SE5534 (biased Class A). I was not expecting to hear much difference over the other flavors of the 5534 chip, as I really could not see much reason for audible differences with just a change in the temperature rating and manufacturer. After all, a chip is a chip, right???

I was mistaken. The SE immediately sounded better to me than the other versions running class A. Highs are "sweeter" and more detailed, but without any trace of stridency. Most noticeable was the depth and width of the soundstage. Very 3-dimensional, similar to that of the OPA604. Dynamics were very good but without ever overpowering the more delicate musical passages. Maybe I just got a good set by luck-of-the-draw, or maybe the "E" in the prefix really stands for "Exellent"!!

Comparing these to my SM with the AD744As, they sounded more lifelike, which is really what I am looking for in my sound. The 744s, by comparison, sounded somewhat thin, which really surprised me.
It seemed like the SE's better reproduced the concert hall effects (reverberation, decay of sounds, etc.)
than do the 744s.

I am very anxious to compare these to the AD829(A), which I have not yet heard, but should arrive within the next day or so.

So goes the ongoing saga of my elusive search for the PERFECT opamp!!!!

As should be obvious by the length of this thread, the quest for the "best overall" opamp will never be resolved due to the many differences in equipment and personal tastes. One must also keep in mind that each person hears the resultant sound differently, probably due to minute physiological differences in the ear anatomy of each listener.

The effects of the pinnae and ear canal on the perception of sound is undoubtedly as varied and individualistic as one's fingerprints.

Keep on rolling!!!!!!

Ron Kerlin
Ft Myers, FL, USA
SuperMacros, Cosmic Headroom, PortaCordaII, ER4S, ER4P, ER6i, EM3, UM2, AH-D6, HD650, AKG501, B&O A8, KSC-35

Reply author: jamato8
Replied on: 06/23/2005 16:38:37
Message:

I liked the SA5534 quite a bit at first but then the sound became thicker and warmer with a loss of detail. I find the AD829 in class A to be very good but it has not run that many hours and I often find that the first sound can be an indicator or things to come or the best that is heard and the sound goes down from there.

I have the SE5534 in one V3 and the AD829 in the other, both in the class A. The SE5534 also has quite a bit of detail with a little sibilance right now but it doesn't even have an hour of on time yet.

John

PS: I can only thank Xin for all the fun! How many opamps are we up to now?? For someone that enjoys tubes, this is like tube rolling to tune in the "just right" sound except I don't have to rebias and adjust voltage supplies and I am not working with 100 to 750 volts. How many other amps can handle this many changes in op amp types and remain stable?

Reply author: HiFlight
Replied on: 06/23/2005 18:12:05
Message:

John...

I would be interested in hearing your comparisons between the class A versions of the AD744 and AD829. Similarities, differences, strong points of each, etc. Also, what phones were being used during these comments?
Thanks...

Ron Kerlin
Ft Myers, FL, USA
SuperMacros, Cosmic Headroom, PortaCordaII, ER4S, ER4P, ER6i, EM3, UM2, AH-D6, HD650, AKG501, B&O A8, KSC-35

Reply author: jamato8
Replied on: 06/23/2005 18:18:49
Message:

I use the PortaPro and the HD650's and sometimes the UM2's. At this point I need to have more break-in time on the AD829 but they do sound promising. The upper mids are very tight and have a nice quality. The bass, at this point, is also taught and well define. But more hours are needed.

John

Reply author: goto2003
Replied on: 06/23/2005 18:39:00
Message:

I used SA5534 for more than 5 days and the "Wow" sound comes back - very defined high and low. It's possible that SA5534 needs more time to settle down.

Reply author: jamato8
Replied on: 06/23/2005 19:20:13
Message:

Sure, look how long Black Gate caps take. I should let things burn in longer as I know from experience that it can take in some cases very long and that the first impression sometimes is what the item will sound like later on.

John

Reply author: rblanco
Replied on: 06/24/2005 13:23:44
Message:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Wombat_VC

Xin, Have yet to receive my A-modules I ordered a
couple of weeks ago, will they be the latest version?

---

Reply author: Xin
Replied on: 06/24/2005 22:47:40
Message:

quote:

---

Originally posted by jamato8


PS: I can only thank Xin for all the fun! How many opamps are we up to now?? For someone that enjoys tubes, this is like tube rolling to tune in the "just right" sound except I don't have to rebias and adjust voltage supplies and I am not working with 100 to 750 volts. How many other amps can handle this many changes in op amp types and remain stable?

---

Reply author: Jon L
Replied on: 06/25/2005 19:34:00
Message:

Here's another addendum to my op-amp comparison to include AD743

Addendum

AD743

A nice surprise as I wasn't expecting that much. There's a rightness about the sound that gets the basics right, leading to immediate connection to music. Generous, full tonality with nice textured details without brightness or peakiness. Not one of those thin, midrange-recessed sounds, which I hate. Detail resolution is on par with something like OPA627 but not at the level of AD744 in class A. AD744 A remains the king of resolution with surgical scalpel precision and insight into microdynamics and subtle intonations, texture in vocals/instruments.

Bass definition of AD744A really is in a class of its own as well, though AD743 bass is pretty well-controlled with just a touch more bloom. AD744 class A doesn't sound as obviously "full" like AD743 or SA5534, but it doesn't need to b/c it fully communicates every ounce of music. Listening to AD744 class A through my AKG K1000 via SM v.3 is nothing short of a revelation. But for something like Ety4S and for mass-produced pop/rock/hip-hop, I prefer AD743. AD743 is more forgiving, subjectively warmer/darker, kind of reminiscent of something like Cardas Golden Reference cable. In fact I may prefer AD743 to SA5534 class A or even OPA627, though they are close.

But really, I think class A biasing is very special for certain op-amps, and I'm now spoiled for life. Just wish there was a way to easily force OPA627, AD743 into class A. Xin?

Reply author: rblanco
Replied on: 06/26/2005 20:59:07
Message:

Thanks Xin, keep up the great work!

Reply author: lexnasa
Replied on: 06/27/2005 08:58:48
Message:

My AD743 samples arrived today, without burn in it sounds like the most musical and well balanced of all the op amps... strange that it is also amongst the slowest (2.7) and the highest current drain (10). Perhaps all these superfast op amps like OPA627 are missing the point? At this point I prefer the AD743 to any of the class A mods, but let's give it a few more days. I don't find the AD743 warmer or darker, my observation is that it is much cleaner and more natural sounding, there is no artificial bite produced by HF noise.

Reply author: Jon L
Replied on: 06/28/2005 19:59:09
Message:

Some more impressions of more op-amps.

Addendum

AD829

A sound a studio mastering pro would love? When one switches from AD743 to AD829 (non class A), there's a jarring difference that makes you uncomfortable. AD743 is warm, comfortable, "natural" yet pretty neutral and detailed. AD829 gives you "just-the-facts-ma'am" type of sound, and whatever softening, rounding, blooming AD743 (or SA5534, NE5534 class A) gave you becomes obvious by their absence in AD829. There's tons of texture and detail, especially in male vocals, that makes Leonard Cohen, etc just project with shocking alacrity. A bit too excessive texture/grain in male vocals IMO in fact, which makes these vocals a bit too dry and well, unnatural. Yet the sound is robust and immediate with great control. A special quality I appreciate is the sense that mid-treble to upper-midrange range is RULER flat, revealing everything that's good and bad in the recording in this range. I'm really torn about this opamp b/c while it does some things better than any other opamps, I couldn't live with it long term due to the unnaturalness. Kind of reminds me of a speaker using those Focal inverted titanium tweeters and Focal Kevlar mid/bass units by a designer who isn't quite the master speaker-designer yet..

AD829 Class A

Ahh, that' more like it. This is like that Focal speaker above designed by a master speaker designer. Retaining the extreme speed, detailing, and neutrality without undue irritation or peakiness or grain. The mildly excessive texture/grain of non-class A AD829 is brought to within my listening comfort zone. There is just a touch of sweetness and naturalness that's added to make the whole experience a lot more natural and enjoyable. Still more detailed than AD743 or SA5534 in class A IMO and retains a bit of forwardness and liveliness that suits rock, pop, techno, etc. There's an incredible sense that the entire frequency range is under iron grip, much like how you feel when you replace 100 wpc amp with 300 wpc monster on same speakers.

I'm not 100% decided which I prefer yet, AD829 class A or AD744 class A. AD829 A does have better bass quantity than AD744 A, not more defined but just as defined yet more quantity of bass. The slightly overdefined bass is AD744A's one slight Achilles' heel in this comparison. However, AD744 still retains a slight edge in conveying a sense of flowing spring water type of purity and refinement without losing any detail resolution to AD829 A. AD829 A is like the best dynamic speakers while AD744 A is like the best electrostat speakers just to give you a flavor difference. I'll Have to do some more comparisons between these 2 over a long time and also comparisons to something like SE5534, ON brand NE5534 class A and report back.

Edit. Well, upon further comparison, I do like AD744 A better overall than AD829 A. AD829 A may do male vocals with a bit more authority and texture, but AD744 A is preferable for female vocals and higher frequencies. These ranges just have sweeter, airier, more 3-D dimensional sound. It just sounds fresher even with repeated listening and plain exquisite.

Reply author: goto2003
Replied on: 06/29/2005 02:41:14
Message:

Has anyone tried soldering 4XBUF634's onto SM3? A head-fier claimed that he got great results from such treak. Highly appreciated for sharing impression and tips on this.

Reply author: jayray999
Replied on: 06/29/2005 04:41:35
Message:

quote:

---

Originally posted by goto2003

Has anyone tried soldering 4XBUF634's onto SM3? A head-fier claimed that he got great results from such treak. Highly appreciated for sharing impression and tips on this.

---

Reply author: HiFlight
Replied on: 06/29/2005 10:18:39
Message:

Although my soldering skills are probably up to par for adding buffers, I don't think my ears are. It is difficult enough for me to objectively hear changes in sound after changing opamps; I don't think I could really detect any differences as a result of adding more than the 2x buffers that are already there. A lot of delicate brain surgery for infitesimal results, IMHO.

I have been trying to rank the different opamps in order of my preferences, and that is about an impossible task, as the differences are so subtle. In addition, my different headsets seem to have "favorites" also.

A final point to ponder...Why do these opamps sound different from one another? The audio bandwidth plus all the harmonics and overtones are such a small part of the bandpass range of even the least sophisticated opamp that in theory, at least, one would expect them to all sound the same. Many of the specs are identical, yet they sound different. I can understand this in a discretely-wired device, but a chunk of silicon???????



Ron Kerlin
Ft Myers, FL, USA
SuperMacros, Cosmic Headroom, PortaCordaII, ER4S, ER4P, ER6i, EM3, UM2, AH-D6, HD650, AKG501, B&O A8, KSC-35

Reply author: StevieDvd
Replied on: 06/29/2005 11:23:53
Message:

We had a bit of a storm last night and I took the opportunity to roll in the OPA627s for the first time, since I'd forgotten to ask Xin to put them in as defaults.

I yet to run them in but initial impressions is that the other opamps are trying to reach them but at a lower cost. So I'm really only looking for something that beats the OPA627s hands-down be it a class A tweak, cheap or not.

As I'd unplugged the tv & hi-fi for the storm I sat for a few hours listening via the line-out of my Ipod via SM3 using my Senn 650s/Zu Mobius as a treat for the SM3 :-)

So what's better than OPA627 if cost is ignored?

Does Xin do a discount for the second SM3 you'd have to buy for direct comparison of opamps - cunning way to sell more SM3s - just kidding, no offense!!!

Steve

Reply author: jayray999
Replied on: 06/29/2005 14:01:50
Message:

quote:

---

Originally posted by StevieDvd


So what's better than OPA627 if cost is ignored?

---

quote:

---

Does Xin do a discount for the second SM3 you'd have to buy for direct comparison of opamps - cunning way to sell more SM3s - just kidding, no offense!!!
Steve

---

Reply author: Jon L
Replied on: 06/29/2005 15:08:31
Message:

quote:

---

Originally posted by jayray999

quote:

---

Originally posted by goto2003

Has anyone tried soldering 4XBUF634's onto SM3? A head-fier claimed that he got great results from such treak. Highly appreciated for sharing impression and tips on this.

---

goto: I tried starting a thread but no one was interested. However Dr. Xin had a suggestion.
http://www.fixup.net/talk/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1070

---

Reply author: jamato8
Replied on: 06/29/2005 18:32:10
Message:

The soic buffer on the bottom of the board is already there as is one on top, which makes two per channel. You have to remove one cap per channel and then add two buffers per channel. This decreases output impedence and increases current drive. But you will also have less battery life for those on the go.

Jonn

Reply author: Wombat_VC
Replied on: 07/04/2005 00:45:12
Message:

Just received the bypass adaptors. Now, for those who has been running on 5534-A for quite some time now, which one should I go for, SA or SE or even Xin's default NE?


* * * * *

Apple iPod (3G 40GB) -> Xin SuperMacro-3 (AD744KNZ) -> Sennheiser HD600 (Equinox)

Reply author: HiFlight
Replied on: 07/04/2005 08:20:08
Message:

Wombat...

I personally liked the ON SE5534 best of the three when biased class A.



Ron Kerlin
Ft Myers, FL, USA
SuperMacros, Cosmic Headroom, PortaCordaII, ER4S, ER4P, ER6i, EM3, UM2, AH-D6, HD650, AKG501, B&O A8, KSC-35

Reply author: shan
Replied on: 07/04/2005 09:42:58
Message:

SE sound image is smaller than SA/NE IMO :)
and not as well defined as SA/NE

Reply author: Jon L
Replied on: 07/04/2005 21:01:01
Message:

Xin (or anyone), could you explain how to "force" OPA627/637 into class A? Resistor value and which pins to use?

Reply author: Wombat_VC
Replied on: 07/04/2005 23:37:08
Message:

Thank you for the info.

Shan,

So, between SA and NE, which one do you prefer?


* * * * *

Apple iPod (3G 40GB) -> Xin SuperMacro-3 (AD744KNZ) -> Sennheiser HD600 (Equinox)

Reply author: shan
Replied on: 07/05/2005 03:43:18
Message:

SA is smoother,NE is clearer, depends on your taste
I am using NE

Reply author: bernard
Replied on: 07/05/2005 03:51:14
Message:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jon L

Xin (or anyone), could you explain how to "force" OPA627/637 into class A? Resistor value and which pins to use?

---

Reply author: Xin
Replied on: 07/12/2005 00:37:35
Message:

Bernard was right. The class-A we've been talking about is actually output bypassing.

For OPA627 and any, I just made some special sockets with which you can put any opamp into class-A. I'm still testing them and I'll give more details later. So far the sound is very good when I use OPA627 with the new special sockets. I'll call these new sockets as "Class-A" adapter. This is a good news for OPA627 lovers.

Reply author: Wombat_VC
Replied on: 07/12/2005 01:46:12
Message:

Can OPA604 go class-A? How does it sound?


* * * * *

Apple iPod (3G 40GB) -> Xin SuperMacro-3 (SA5534 Output Bypassed) -> Sennheiser HD600 (Equinox)

Reply author: StevieDvd
Replied on: 07/12/2005 04:41:03
Message:

It begs the question then if the Class A adapter can make any opamp into class A then what happens with one with the output bypass. DOes that make them Class AA?

Or are the changes to bypass output and class A mutually exclusive?

Reply author: Xin
Replied on: 07/12/2005 10:41:27
Message:

The upcoming class-A adapter supports any opamp, including OPA604. The output bypass adapter works for few opamps only, AD829, NE5534 and AD747 so far as we know of. When OB is used, it is already class-A, no need and cannot use class-A adapter on top of it.

Reply author: kithng
Replied on: 07/12/2005 10:50:25
Message:

Hi Dr. Xin, I'm just ordered a adapter on 05 July. order number is 36525109, will it ship with the new adapter or the old one ?

thanks

Reply author: jayray999
Replied on: 07/12/2005 13:08:42
Message:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Xin

Bernard was right. The class-A we've been talking about is actually output bypassing.

For OPA627 and any, I just made some special sockets with which you can put any opamp into class-A. I'm still testing them and I'll give more details later. So far the sound is very good when I use OPA627 with the new special sockets. I'll call these new sockets as "Class-A" adapter. This is a good news for OPA627 lovers.

---

Reply author: jhlbbs
Replied on: 07/12/2005 13:31:45
Message:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Xin

The upcoming class-A adapter supports any opamp, including OPA604. The output bypass adapter works for few opamps only, AD829, NE5534 and AD747 so far as we know of. When OB is used, it is already class-A, no need and cannot use class-A adapter on top of it.

---

Reply author: HiFlight
Replied on: 07/12/2005 15:43:53
Message:

AD744 CAN be biased Class A by using the compensation pin. As far as I know, the only 3 opamps that can be biased Class A by using the compensation pin are: AD829, AD744, NE-SA-SE5534.

So far, after all my trials of all the available opamps, my favorite is: AD744 biased Class A, followed by AD743.

Please note that this is my personal preference, based on my own ears and headphones. YMMV!!!

Very good news to hear that Dr Xin is developing a socket that will permit biasing other non-compensated opamps!



Ron Kerlin
Ft Myers, FL, USA
SuperMacros, Cosmic Headroom, PortaCordaII, ER4S, ER4P, ER6i, EM3, UM2, AH-D6, HD650, Ultrasone 2500, AKG501, B&O A8, KSC-35

Reply author: bernard
Replied on: 07/12/2005 16:17:43
Message:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Xin

I just made some special sockets with which you can put any opamp into class-A.

---

Reply author: Xin
Replied on: 07/14/2005 15:24:36
Message:

For 744, 829 and 5534, output bypass is better. The new class-A adapter/socket is mainly for other opamps that have no compensation pin. For AD744, 829 and 5534, you can use either, but not both at the same time, and OB is better.

Forcing class-A at output of opamp is indeed related to the internal circuit and thus opamp dependant. So, if such clas-A circuit is fixed on amp board, then not all opamps will be optimized or even worse result for some opamps. Using a socket/adapter solves this issue as it is attached to a specific opamp. I have been testing different versions for different opamps. The tests also include how many current to bias, considering battery life.

BTW, forcing class-A also causes uneven battery drain from + and - rails. Therefore, those amps that use two 9V batteries cannot use this trick.

Reply author: Jon L
Replied on: 07/15/2005 09:40:36
Message:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Xin

For 744, 829 and 5534, output bypass is better. The new class-A adapter/socket is mainly for other opamps that have no compensation pin. For AD744, 829 and 5534, you can use either, but not both at the same time, and OB is better.

Forcing class-A at output of opamp is indeed related to the internal circuit and thus opamp dependant. So, if such clas-A circuit is fixed on amp board, then not all opamps will be optimized or even worse result for some opamps. Using a socket/adapter solves this issue as it is attached to a specific opamp. I have been testing different versions for different opamps. The tests also include how many current to bias, considering battery life.

BTW, forcing class-A also causes uneven battery drain from + and - rails. Therefore, those amps that use two 9V batteries cannot use this trick.

---

Reply author: jayray999
Replied on: 07/15/2005 13:28:32
Message:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Xin

For 744, 829 and 5534, output bypass is better. The new class-A adapter/socket is mainly for other opamps that have no compensation pin. For AD744, 829 and 5534, you can use either, but not both at the same time, and OB is better.

Forcing class-A at output of opamp is indeed related to the internal circuit and thus opamp dependant. So, if such clas-A circuit is fixed on amp board, then not all opamps will be optimized or even worse result for some opamps. Using a socket/adapter solves this issue as it is attached to a specific opamp. I have been testing different versions for different opamps. The tests also include how many current to bias, considering battery life.

BTW, forcing class-A also causes uneven battery drain from + and - rails. Therefore, those amps that use two 9V batteries cannot use this trick.

---

Reply author: goto2003
Replied on: 07/18/2005 08:37:42
Message:

After another round of OPAMPs battle, I have to admit that the ON NE5534's and AD744's under class A sound the most transparent. In terms of transparency, the rank of favor of 5534's is: ON NE5534>SE5534>SA5534. As I use HD600 most of the time, NE5534's couple with 600 the best. Unless Xin has another big finding, I think I will have some good music time with NE5534's.

Reply author: Xin
Replied on: 07/18/2005 10:27:21
Message:

No problem for OPA604 and OPA637, but I have been mainly listening to OPA627 + class-A. So far it sounds very clean (sound wise and image wise) and I prefer it over to NE5534 + OB for its clarity (sorry, goto2003). The socket cost and looks the same as the OB socket, $10 with NE5534 installed, available soon this week. Almost no influence to battery life.

Reply author: jamato8
Replied on: 07/18/2005 16:21:30
Message:

I just biased my 627 into class A and what a change. The sound is very powerful and full.

John

Reply author: Jon L
Replied on: 07/18/2005 17:23:48
Message:

quote:

---

Originally posted by jamato8

I just biased my 627 into class A and what a change. The sound is very powerful and full.

John

---

Reply author: shan
Replied on: 07/18/2005 20:48:01
Message:

Wow,Any details? I am very interested about the adaptor...
but the shipping cost could be a problem..(>$25)

Reply author: shan
Replied on: 07/18/2005 22:20:10
Message:

Can we do this class A bias trick without an adaptor?
Xin can you explain more details about the adaptor please..thanks :)

Reply author: Xin
Replied on: 07/18/2005 23:54:27
Message:

shan and others, I don't want to post the details on public. Email me. BTW, for sockets and cheap stuff, you may use the $5 shipping.

Reply author: shan
Replied on: 07/19/2005 00:00:53
Message:

alright :))

Reply author: goto2003
Replied on: 07/19/2005 04:33:24
Message:

How does the AD797 sound under class A?

Reply author: ronfint
Replied on: 07/19/2005 13:59:04
Message:

A thread on Head-Fi has indicated that one can force opamps into class A by soldering a 2.2K resistor between pins 6 and 7 of an opamp or socket. Is this what is being done to create the class A adapters? I have a few of the FANE adapters left, and I'd like to do this to make some class A adapters. If all the information I've stated so far is correct, is there a recommended resistor to use? It would certainly have be much smaller than any resistor that a novice like me has ever used.

Thanks!

Reply author: Xin
Replied on: 07/19/2005 20:56:37
Message:

Have not tried the 797 yet. 604 is very good too. I just put a pair of ON SEMI NE5534 into the class-A sockets, the bass is "too much". It makes me wonder such kind of blowing bass is normal or not. Maybe it is just what class-A ought to be. I'll need more time to verify this.

Reply author: shan
Replied on: 07/19/2005 22:16:13
Message:

http://tangentsoft.net/audio/opamp-bias.html
http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/tweaks/messages/31186.html
http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/tweaks/messages/31384.html
any comments?

Reply author: Xin
Replied on: 07/20/2005 00:02:44
Message:

Yes I knew all those links. They are paper work. Here is a real one:

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=38984&highlight=opa627+classa

I like this guy Carlosfm. I found that he knew some very special tricks that I figured out by myself.

Audio is not about how elegant it sounds on paper (theory) but how good to my ears. There are many DIYers who spend more time on paper than PCB layout.

Reply author: shan
Replied on: 07/20/2005 01:06:55
Message:

Yes paperwork always mean nothing

I am listening to 627 class a,
It doesn't outperform ne5534a at all...hmm...
maybe it needs some time to break in?
or maybe because my resistors are too cheap?($0.012 each,not SMD,connecting pin4,6)

btw 627 seems clearer & darker than 637

Reply author: guido
Replied on: 07/20/2005 03:43:34
Message:

connecting pin 4 and 6?
I thought it was 6 and 7...

High end Audio; Norh Marble 9.0s, Kratos subs, QDS valve CD player, Black Widow Valve pre, Marchand active Xover, Audio Research D125, ASL Wave 8s and Norh LeAmps. [ iPodMini with ER4P\S - HD650 and SM3] see www.delgi.com and www.olympicguns.com

Reply author: goto2003
Replied on: 07/20/2005 07:05:10
Message:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Xin

I just put a pair of ON SEMI NE5534 into the class-A sockets, the bass is "too much". It makes me wonder such kind of blowing bass is normal or not. Maybe it is just what class-A ought to be. I'll need more time to verify this.

---

Reply author: ronfint
Replied on: 07/20/2005 09:08:01
Message:

I apologize for reproducing incorrect information here. After checking the diy-audio link that Xin posted, I see that the correct pins to connect with a resistor are 4 and 6 as shan has stated.

I've got some OPA627's coming to me; so I'll have to try this.

Reply author: shan
Replied on: 07/20/2005 09:36:46
Message:

pin 4(v-),6 & pin6,7(v+) both work
Xin told me 6,7 sounds more tuby,
but the resistor is too hard for me to solder on 6,7, so I choose 4,6

Reply author: Xin
Replied on: 07/20/2005 12:20:07
Message:

Let me put it this way: without OB (output bypass) or CA (class-A), I was watching an old (normal) TV. With OB, I'm watching HDTV, sitting very close to it though, and I see too much details like digital blocks. With CA, I'm watching a big screen HDTV at a proper distance; huge, slashing and still not missing any details.

With OB, I'm within the stage; with CA, I'm in the first row or so.

My current favorite list is:

NE5534-CA > OPA627-CA > NE5534-OB

Reply author: dwc
Replied on: 07/22/2005 16:06:07
Message:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Xin


NE5534-CA > OPA627-CA > NE5534-OB

---

Reply author: guido
Replied on: 07/23/2005 04:11:58
Message:

OPA627 Class A....so far it outshines everything else I have heard to date
Second place AD744 OB
Third place AD743

High end Audio; Norh Marble 9.0s, Kratos subs, QDS valve CD player, Black Widow Valve pre, Marchand active Xover, Audio Research D125, ASL Wave 8s and Norh LeAmps. [ iPodMini with ER4P\S - HD650 and SM3] see www.delgi.com and www.olympicguns.com

Reply author: jamato8
Replied on: 07/23/2005 05:59:20
Message:

When I first tried the 627 in class A the sound was fat. It had to burn in for a few hours. I also am listening the the SA5534 in class A and they both, after some burn-in, sound very good to my ear. The bass is stronger but settles down. The sound is very dimensional and open with the opamps biased to class A. This is as good as with my tube amps and tube rolling! I can even change the bias as with my tube amps.

So far I prefer the 627 in class A for the controlled and less emphasis of bass with the V3 Lite over the SA5534 in class A in the standard V3 and the standard has one more buffer. I am getting some of the NE5534 so this may change as it appears many like the NE over the SA.

John

Reply author: goto2003
Replied on: 07/23/2005 20:53:33
Message:

NE seems to be more flat and neutral and has more subtle detail than SA.

Reply author: phillevy
Replied on: 07/23/2005 22:38:05
Message:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Xin

Let me put it this way: without OB (output bypass) or CA (class-A), I was watching an old (normal) TV. With OB, I'm watching HDTV, sitting very close to it though, and I see too much details like digital blocks. With CA, I'm watching a big screen HDTV at a proper distance; huge, slashing and still not missing any details.

With OB, I'm within the stage; with CA, I'm in the first row or so.

My current favorite list is:

NE5534-CA > OPA627-CA > NE5534-OB

---

Reply author: Xin
Replied on: 07/24/2005 11:16:15
Message:

Yes, the ONSEMI 5534 is fantastic either with OB or CA. CA might not be your taste, but worth a try.

Reply author: HiFlight
Replied on: 07/24/2005 17:14:02
Message:

Anyone yet try the AD743 or the OPA604 with the new class A adapters?



Ron Kerlin
Ft Myers, FL, USA
iAudio X5L, iRiver H120,
SM3, Cosmic Headroom, PortaCordaII, ER4S, ER4P, ER6i, EM3, UM2, AH-D6, HD650, Ultrasone 2500, AKG501, B&O A8, KSC-35

Reply author: Wombat_VC
Replied on: 07/24/2005 22:26:01
Message:

Xin,

I see that you put 5534-CA ahead of the 627-CA in your list of favorites. Can you tell us why?


* * * * *

Apple iPod (3G 40GB) -> Xin SuperMacro-3 (SA5534 Output Bypassed) -> Sennheiser HD600 (Equinox)

Reply author: Xin
Replied on: 07/24/2005 22:41:43
Message:

I find 5534-CA is more open than 627-CA. I also tried AD797-CA, it was even darker than without CA, some might love it. OPA604 is indeed smoother with CA and more passionate than 627. Like AD744, 604's noise level is 5dB higher than other opamps; so I don't want to push them for the concern of low-impedance, sensitive phones and ears.

So far I still like 5534 plus CA the most, the ONSEMI or NJM(JRC)5534. They sound so good and do not have any shortcomings (low noise, low batt drain, deadly cheap, etc.).

Reply author: 77042
Replied on: 07/25/2005 00:49:53
Message:

I notice there are some who has already biased their 627, but has anyone biased 637 yet? If so, what are your impressions?

Reply author: goto2003
Replied on: 07/25/2005 07:40:39
Message:

It seems not so many people tried the CA. My CA adapters are still on their way and really appreciate for some tips on rolling different opamps under CA.

Reply author: StevieDvd
Replied on: 07/25/2005 08:37:49
Message:

I've just ordered my adapters as I don't fancy trying to solder the very small resistors. I plan to try the 5534, OPA627 and possibly the AD843 I have fitted at present.

Reply author: kithng
Replied on: 07/25/2005 09:35:21
Message:

does anyone tried AD797 in Class A ?

Reply author: HiFlight
Replied on: 07/25/2005 19:25:32
Message:

I thought I might be finished rolling opamps for awhile, but after having received my Class A adapters, I started with a few of my favorites, below are my impressions so far:

OPA 627-CA..Nice but not too impressive on the bottom end. Doesn't take advantage of the capabilities of the SM3.

OPA604-CA..Best bottom-end of anything I have heard yet! Solid, deep fundemental bass without bloom. Most difference of any opamp between standard and class-A. Much smoother.

AD743-CA..VERY musical! Smooth, delicate and detailed. Flatters all of my headphones. A sweet airy sound. Will never fatigue! My current favorite.

Ron Kerlin
Ft Myers, FL, USA
iAudio X5L, iRiver H120,
SM3, Cosmic Headroom, PortaCordaII, ER4S, ER4P, ER6i, EM3, UM2, AH-D6, HD650, Ultrasone 2500, AKG501, B&O A8, KSC-35

Reply author: jamato8
Replied on: 07/26/2005 20:38:18
Message:

I just ordered some 743's but you have to try the 8610 in CA. What a huge soundstage. Dire Straits on some of their cd's throws a soundstage that sends chills up your back.

John

Reply author: lexnasa
Replied on: 07/27/2005 07:10:49
Message:

The class A adaptors make a big difference: all the op amps not capable of output bypass are improved, however those that are capable of OB still sound better IMHO than any in class A. I was most impressed by OPA604 in class A - it really is very dramatic. However after many hours of rolling, I'm back to AD829-OB, amazingly fast, liquid, musical and detailed.

Reply author: jamato8
Replied on: 07/27/2005 10:43:42
Message:

I really like the 8610 smd in class A. Well isn't this great. How many amps can offer this kind of tayloring? I never thought I would be into opamp rolling but having used tubes for years and rolling tubes to get the sound I want, this is right up my alley and unexpected.

Johnn

Reply author: Jon L
Replied on: 07/27/2005 16:00:00
Message:

quote:

---

Originally posted by lexnasa

The class A adaptors make a big difference: all the op amps not capable of output bypass are improved, however those that are capable of OB still sound better IMHO than any in class A. I was most impressed by OPA604 in class A - it really is very dramatic. However after many hours of rolling, I'm back to AD829-OB, amazingly fast, liquid, musical and detailed.

---

Reply author: HiFlight
Replied on: 07/27/2005 17:17:51
Message:

Jon...

I just got done comparing the AD744OB and AD829OB, and side-by-side using both of my SM3s, the 829's bass sounded a bit overblown, and the highs were veiled compared to the 744. IMHO, the 744 is a more natural and neutral sound. That being said, however, the AD743 Class A is a beauty. Overall, as of now, it is my favorite for accurate natural musical rendition that is about as close as your can get to "being there". It seems to deliver a more full sound than the 744. It is a very low-noise opamp, so perhaps that has some bearing on the very clean sound.

The last opamp I am waiting to try CA is the AD8610. John (jamato8) has posted some very favorable comments on it.

Ron Kerlin
Ft Myers, FL, USA
iAudio X5L, iRiver H120,
SM3, Cosmic Headroom, PortaCordaII, ER4S, ER4P, ER6i, EM3, UM2, AH-D6, HD650, Ultrasone 2500, AKG501, B&O A8, KSC-35

Reply author: ronfint
Replied on: 07/27/2005 18:04:23
Message:

I've been using AD797 CA for the last few days and was very pleased with the smooth sound. Spurred by the positive posts, I just switched to AD743 CA, and it was like switching from a big tube amp to a SET. The one word that I have to describe the 743CA as I hear it is "immediacy". It's just fabulous. Thanks for the recommendation!

Reply author: lexnasa
Replied on: 07/27/2005 18:54:04
Message:

quote:

---

Originally posted by HiFlight

Jon...

I just got done comparing the AD744OB and AD829OB, and side-by-side using both of my SM3s, the 829's bass sounded a bit overblown, and the highs were veiled compared to the 744. IMHO, the 744 is a more natural and neutral sound.

---

Reply author: shan
Replied on: 07/27/2005 19:27:37
Message:

The more I listen to ON5534 & other OPs,the more I like 5534 :)
Sound is so natural,lush,huge soundstage,very lively & realistic
the most crystal clear sound I've heard.

Just ordered some 5534s again for my future Xin amps/dacs :))

Reply author: Xin
Replied on: 07/27/2005 23:35:27
Message:

Shan, looking forward to what you'll say when you hear the AD8610+CA.

Reply author: jamato8
Replied on: 07/27/2005 23:43:03
Message:

I was just listening to Brothers in Arms by Dire Straits using the NE5534 ON and really enjoying the smooth open sound. Then I switched to my other amp that has the 8610 in CA. What a whirlwind of sound and openess. I think both opamps are great but the 8610 in CA just is so big and open. In the review I did of the SM I said it had a stage you where in and with the 8610 CA it is just more of this. Pretty exciting stuff. I really like my modified Woo 3 with its fine glowing tubes and open dynamic sound but it is gathering more and more dust as the days go by.

Oh, and the bass with the 8610 CA. I know I have mentioned it before but it is one of the best I have heard.

John

Reply author: lexnasa
Replied on: 07/28/2005 03:18:23
Message:

I've ordered some 8610-CA from Xin today - how exciting! I'm another tube roller, and never thought I could have so much fun with ICs. As any change of cable, connector or component can have a major impact on sound, the SM3 has become the point in the signal chain where everything can be tuned and compensated for... truly outstanding! I'm no longer using any of my desktop headphone amps, I even use the SM3 for a large part of the mastering process.

Reply author: richwang
Replied on: 07/28/2005 04:05:47
Message:

Will be even more fun if you hook up the SM3 between your source and amp. Enjoy.

Reply author: lexnasa
Replied on: 07/28/2005 08:37:22
Message:

I went back and did some AB testing of AD744-OB and AD829-OB. AD744-OB sounds impressive, everything is articulated well, but upper mid range and lower highs are slightly recessed, which gives the impression of an increase in upper highs. So everything is sparkling and fresh, but also slightly hollow sounding, also noticably noisy. The music sounded nice, but nothing sounded like a real instrument. Timing was bad, rhythmic music lacked cohesion, even though all the sound was "there", it didn't hang together as a whole.

Moving to AD829-OB, it sounds astonishingly linear. All the music is there, just as it is, it's nowhere near as impressive as AD744-OB on first listen. However, there is almost no noise, every instrument sounds like a real instrument, with all it's harmonics in the right place. Listening to Chet Baker Sings, his voice in places is as pure as a sine wave. The tonal character of each instrument and voice is reproduced convincingly. Timing is vastly improved over AD744-OB, any rhythmic music gets you engaged almost immediately. The music hangs and sings together as a whole. When it should bite, it bites. When it should sing, it sings.

I guess I would characterise the difference this way: AD744-OB sounds like you have your headphones plugged into a top notch CD player - it's impressive, but it's hi-fi. AD829-OB sounds like you have your headphones plugged into the mixing desk at the original recording.

Perhaps all this is a sleight of hand produced by the AD829-OB, but for me it's very convincing.

Although the class A adaptor brings improvements, IMHO no op amp in class A approaches the astonishing linearity and musicality of the AD829-OB.

I guess we should always end these comments by giving details of the setup we used for the comparison.

Ipod Photo 60gb > Pocket Dock > Ted's Earcandy Mini to Mini > SM3 new buffers + AD829-OB > Blue Dragon II Cable > Sennheiser HD650s

Reply author: HiFlight
Replied on: 07/28/2005 09:00:39
Message:

Lexnasa...

I would be interested in your audition of the AD743-CA. It seems to be more similar to the AD829 in its rendition of instrument harmonics, and is also very low noise. Doesn't seem to favor any part of the musical spectrum over another. I am now using it as my benchmark to compare other opamps.

Ron Kerlin
Ft Myers, FL, USA
iAudio X5L, iRiver H120,
SM3, Cosmic Headroom, PortaCordaII, ER4S, ER4P, ER6i, EM3, UM2, AH-D6, HD650, Ultrasone 2500, AKG501, B&O A8, KSC-35

Reply author: Xin
Replied on: 07/28/2005 09:03:25
Message:

There is a report in Chinese talk, SM3 w/ CA has significantly lower noise level, MUCH lower than that of OB or SR71. This may have something to do with the resistor in CA. Keep this in mind when you use SM3 in an application that require super low noise such as mastering.

Reply author: lexnasa
Replied on: 07/28/2005 09:25:51
Message:

Xin, that's interesting, and I definitely hear less grain and noise for OPA627, OPA604, AD744, AD743 in class A. However, I think AD829-OB is really something special, and my ears don't tell me I'm getting less noise from that op amp in class A, just a different tonal balance. Don't worry, I won't make bad masters as a result of using SM3, and I never use headphones for overall mix and tonal balance. AD829-OB for me sounds like a really good class A tube amp, or probably more accurately an early Marantz FET pre-amp, but faster.

Ron, I'll have another listen to AD743-CA and let you know. At the end of the day hearing is subjective and you go with what you love.

Reply author: lexnasa
Replied on: 07/28/2005 09:42:45
Message:

Ron, AD743-CA: dynamics a bit flat, fairly good tonal balance, harmonics seem OK, no noise to my ears, timing is lousy. Soundstage has a letterbox effect.

Reply author: Jon L
Replied on: 07/28/2005 11:05:51
Message:

quote:

---

Originally posted by lexnasa

I've ordered some 8610-CA from Xin today - how exciting! I'm another tube roller, and never thought I could have so much fun with ICs. As any change of cable, connector or component can have a major impact on sound, the SM3 has become the point in the signal chain where everything can be tuned and compensated for... truly outstanding! I'm no longer using any of my desktop headphone amps, I even use the SM3 for a large part of the mastering process.

---

Reply author: jamato8
Replied on: 07/28/2005 11:30:23
Message:

I just compared the AD753 that I just got in class A to the 829 in CA. I find that the 743 sounds a little truncated and the signal ends sooner than with the 829. I find the 829 in CA holds onto the note longer. This is the difference I hear between my SR71 and the SM, the SM holding onto the note just a little longer than the 71.

John

Reply author: HiFlight
Replied on: 07/28/2005 12:20:35
Message:

John...

Now that you have listened to both the AD8610-CA and the AD829-OB, how would you compare the 2?? I have not yet gotten my CA 8610s to compare. I am taking another more extended listen to the AD829, and trying it with several different types of music and my Ultrasones, which are more revealing than my other phones.

Ron Kerlin
Ft Myers, FL, USA
iAudio X5L, iRiver H120,
SM3, Cosmic Headroom, PortaCordaII, ER4S, ER4P, ER6i, EM3, UM2, AH-D6, HD650, Ultrasone 2500, AKG501, B&O A8, KSC-35

Reply author: jamato8
Replied on: 07/28/2005 12:34:48
Message:

I will have to do more listening. I will solder up another . .. . wait. .. to many opamps I am getting confused. I prefer the 8610 CA. It gets you closer to the sound, performance. There is a even treatment of the mid frequencies with stunning clarity. I am using the HD650's and they sound much better than when I started this journey. The bypass and expecially the CA are very, very noticable with the 650's, more so than when rolling opamps in the "normal" configuration. I actually used to prefer the PortaPros in some areas over the HD650's but now there is noooo contest. The V3 in CA lets the 650's shine.

I will have to try my UM2's. The 650's are recabled with my own teflon tubing and hyper pure silver cable.

Edit: too many opamps. I have to go back and listen to the 829 again but I know I like it.

John in hot and humid, Tucson, AZ

Reply author: guido
Replied on: 07/28/2005 23:45:00
Message:

Ok....I could quite easily hardwire the AD8610 CA now and never roll another opamp...wow!!!
With the HD650s this is the best yet..so effortless..

High end Audio; Norh Marble 9.0s, Kratos subs, QDS valve CD player, Black Widow Valve pre, Marchand active Xover, Audio Research D125, ASL Wave 8s and Norh LeAmps. [ iPodMini with ER4P\S - HD650 and SM3] see www.delgi.com and www.olympicguns.com

Reply author: Wombat_VC
Replied on: 07/29/2005 01:00:54
Message:

Does AD8610-CA sound too bright?


* * * * *

Apple iPod (3G 40GB) -> Xin SuperMacro-3 (SA5534 Output Bypassed) -> Sennheiser HD600 (Equinox)

Reply author: Xin
Replied on: 07/29/2005 01:39:40
Message:

No, not at all, a surperise, very mush.

Reply author: HiFlight
Replied on: 07/29/2005 13:26:07
Message:

I have just received my AD8610-CA opamps, and must say that I totally agree with the glowing reports from others so far. I am surprised that the change to CA made such a dramatic difference in the sound, especially the bright highs that were present in my SM1. The soundstage is wider and deeper than previously, what a sweet sound!

This opamp will now be the default in one of my SM3s. My other SM will still be used to play around with some other opamps that I liked, but have not yet tried with CA. Am wondering how the OPA227 will sound Class A....(I guess I just have too much idle time!)

Wombat...to answer your question regarding the AD8610-CA...The highs are sweet, clear, and not overly bright or strident. Much better tonal balance and smoothness than I heard in my SM1 with the default AD8610.

Ron Kerlin
Ft Myers, FL, USA
iAudio X5L, iRiver H120,
SM3, Cosmic Headroom, PortaCordaII, ER4S, ER4P, ER6i, EM3, UM2, AH-D6, HD650, Ultrasone 2500, AKG501, B&O A8, KSC-35

Reply author: HiFlight
Replied on: 07/29/2005 14:47:11
Message:

Well, having nothing better to do on a rainy afternoon, I decided to go ahead and retry OPA227 with my Class A adapters. The resulting sound was improved over the "stock" 227. Bass is tighter, soundstage width and depth are good, similar to that of the AD604. Highs which used to sound sort of remote are more balanced now. Soundstage is a couple rows back when compared to the 8610. As this opamp is low-noise with very low harmonic distortion specs, the smoothness of the sound is to be expected. As I have trouble hearing "noise" in an opamp, I relate smoothness to lack of noise. They are certainly a non-fatiguing opamp to listen to for long periods of time. They sounded good with my Etys, which I don't use much anymore. Also sounded nice with the HD650s, very smooth and musical.

If you like the sound of the 5534 in class A, I think you will like the OPA227-CA. I haven't seen many posts about it, and it has always been pretty high on my "like" list, so for that reason decided to try it again class A. Another benefit of this opamp is the low current draw.

I would like to hear what some of the rest of you think about the Class-A sound of this "oldie" I like it.

Ron Kerlin
Ft Myers, FL, USA
iAudio X5L, iRiver H120,
SM3, Cosmic Headroom, PortaCordaII, ER4S, ER4P, ER6i, EM3, UM2, AH-D6, HD650, Ultrasone 2500, AKG501, B&O A8, KSC-35

Reply author: shan
Replied on: 07/30/2005 10:22:36
Message:

Another great chip,AD9632, it sounds as good as 8610(w/o CA,I don't have CA adaptor)
compare to 8610,9632 is clearer,soundstage is better.
FYI :)

Reply author: HiFlight
Replied on: 07/30/2005 12:19:04
Message:

Shan...
Sounds like an interesting opamp to try! I notice that it has about a 15+ma requirement each, does this noticeably cut down on your battery life? I know the opamps are only a small part of the total current draw, but this seems to be the highest current draw of any discussed so far.

If it sounds really great, it would certainly be worth a somewhat shorter battery life.

Ron Kerlin
Ft Myers, FL, USA
iAudio X5L, iRiver H120,
SM3, Cosmic Headroom, PortaCordaII, ER4S, ER4P, ER6i, EM3, UM2, AH-D6, HD650, Ultrasone 2500, AKG501, B&O A8, KSC-35

Reply author: Elephas
Replied on: 07/31/2005 03:19:03
Message:

I want to express my thanks to Dr. Xin and all those who were so helpful in this thread.

I've been using my SM3 since April with the default NE5534 opamps. I was happy with the sound quality and didn't feel a need to roll opamps.

After reading much of this thread, I ordered some opamp options on the SM3 order page as well as a new black case.

After rolling and listening all afternoon today, I'm stunned and even happier with my SM3. The differences and improvement in sound quality is amazing. I can't decide which one is better; I like them all.

Thanks guys.

Reply author: zxkaw
Replied on: 08/01/2005 08:33:13
Message:

Hi guys,
I have the 637s class A and the sound is the best sound yet. Everything is perfect good bass, highs, midrange and detail of instruments is amazing. I can't find any faults with my ears listening to this setup. I am using a creative zen->Xin SM 3 637s class A->ultimate ears UE-10s. My next challenge is finding the perfect portable CD player and DAC setup. I now have the perfect mp3 player amp headphone combination in my opinion but it sure would be nice to have the same sound out of a CD player. I have a Sony D-NE 10 which imo was the best sounding pcdp i listened to but it does'nt sound as good as the mp3 player. Maybe a good DAC would help and put it on par with the mp3 player. Only problem is the sony has a switchable line out, but does have an optical line out option. Any one have any good recommendations on cd players? I hear Xin has a DAC in the works so picking a DAC is a no brainer . Not many choices in portable DACs but why look when Xin has plans to make one. He makes the best amps bar none. His SM 3 is right up there with high end home amps so I would say his DAC will be just as impressive as his amps. Thanks Xin for bringing high end sound to portable listening

Reply author: lexnasa
Replied on: 08/01/2005 08:57:26
Message:

Don't bother with CD players, with a well ripped and encoded file you won't be able to tell the difference. Creative Zen is MP3 or WMA right? Neither is a very good lossy format, and the Zen is also not the best player. Get an iPod, and a Pocket Dock line out. Get iTunes, and rip your CDs to Apple Lossless or AAC at 224k or above... it will blow your socks off through an SM3. If you're feeling adventurous, rip your CDs using EAC, and then use Foobar2000 to encode to AAC using Nero (foo_naac) or FAAC (foo_faac) (only at higher bitrates, FAAC is lousy below 192k).

With this there should be little need for a DAC. After all, a DAC is just another piece of hardware and a set of cables between you and the music.

I'm not an Apple freak, just someone that likes music. Actually I still prefer MPC over every other lossy format, but it has almost no hardware support. Ogg Vorbis is also as good as AAC now (aotuv beta 4), but I still haven't found a player with a decent line out that is sensible to use.

Reply author: jamato8
Replied on: 08/01/2005 09:50:53
Message:

I have never gotten into any of these formats. Where would be some good reading material so I could come up to speed?

Thanks,
John

Reply author: HiFlight
Replied on: 08/01/2005 09:51:35
Message:

Both the iRiver and iAudio X5 support ogg vorbis. Additionally, the X5 supports .flac and .ape encoding, both lossless. I have been using Direct Audio Converter and CD Ripper to rip to both .ogg and .flac. Works just fine, nice piece of software. Can be found at:

http://www.pistonsoft.com/

Both the above players have a line-out. The iRiver H120 also has an optical line out for those who desire such a feature. The X5 supports Jet Audio, which is a technology that synthesizes that portion of the audio waveform that is removed during compression by lossy codecs. In practice, it sounds very good. Better quality audio output than on any of my other players when using these enhancements. The X5L(30gb) has a 35hr battery life, and 30gb hd. Workmanship and features are much advanced over the iRiver and iPod. (Cost is also higher)

Both of the above players are recognized as a removable drive, and files can be added or removed by dragging and dropping. No need for special software.

Ron Kerlin
Ft Myers, FL, USA
iAudio X5L, iRiver H120,
SM3, Cosmic Headroom, PortaCordaII, ER4S, ER4P, ER6i, EM3, UM2, AH-D6, HD650, Ultrasone 2500, AKG501, B&O A8, KSC-35

Reply author: irvin
Replied on: 08/01/2005 10:26:17
Message:

quote:

---

Originally posted by jamato8

I have never gotten into any of these formats. Where would be some good reading material so I could come up to speed?

Thanks,
John

---

Reply author: irvin
Replied on: 08/01/2005 10:38:15
Message:

quote:

---

Originally posted by lexnasa



With this there should be little need for a DAC. After all, a DAC is just another piece of hardware and a set of cables between you and the music.

---

Reply author: Jon L
Replied on: 08/01/2005 12:19:29
Message:

quote:

---

Originally posted by HiFlight

The X5L(30gb) has a 35hr battery life, and 30gb hd. Workmanship and features are much advanced over the iRiver and iPod. (Cost is also higher)


Ron Kerlin
Ft Myers, FL, USA
iAudio X5L, iRiver H120,
SM3, Cosmic Headroom, PortaCordaII, ER4S, ER4P, ER6i, EM3, UM2, AH-D6, HD650, Ultrasone 2500, AKG501, B&O A8, KSC-35

---

Reply author: HiFlight
Replied on: 08/01/2005 14:23:08
Message:

Jon..

I am not sure what the realistic battery life on my X5L will be, as I usually keep it in the dock which I have connected via the dock line out to my SM. I have, however, run over 24 hrs without recharging and based on the indicator should get over 30 without much trouble. I usually just select "shuffle" mode, and let it play.

I don't miss the optical output on the iAudio, as I am using either lossless or a high bitrate encoding for my music files. Running the line out sounds better to me with the iAudio than the iRiver does with the optical out primarily because of the Jet Audio processing support.

On either player, using non-lossy encoded files or .wav files, we are talking about the very peak of the audio mountain, and further audio improvements would be well past the point of diminishing returns, imho. To really compare any player one against the other, apples to apples, one needs to use .wav files as the standard of comparison. There is much variance between the codecs used by different ripping and encoding software. In other words, all mp3 files encoded at high bitrates are not created equally.

I am now running the AD8610-CA in one SM and the OPA227-CA in the other. Both sound so good to me that I will stay with them for awhile. I find that of all the opamps I have tried, all have their strong points and weak points. I think, due to individual preferences and equipment differences, there will never be a "best" choice overall.

Ron Kerlin
Ft Myers, FL, USA
iAudio X5L, iRiver H120,
SM3, Cosmic Headroom, PortaCordaII, ER4S, ER4P, ER6i, EM3, UM2, AH-D6, HD650, Ultrasone 2500, AKG501, B&O A8, KSC-35

Reply author: JMcMasterJ
Replied on: 08/01/2005 16:07:55
Message:

I do agree that the 227's sound great in CA. They are very musical and easy to listen to. I haven't received my 8610's yet, but the 227's are one my favorites among the ones I've tried.

Reply author: lexnasa
Replied on: 08/01/2005 22:51:40
Message:

I have the iRiver H120, H140 and Cowon X5... whilst they do have a line out, I don't find them sensible to use. iRiver analogue line out is average, digital is better, navigation is awful. X5 has line out only through an add-on mini-dock, which unlike the iPod likes to fall off a lot. X5 line out better than iRiver, worse than iPod. X5's proprietary DSPs sound artificial to me IMHO.

I came late and reluctantly to the iPod, after trying almost every other player.

Reply author: irvin
Replied on: 08/02/2005 01:47:29
Message:

I don't think the ideal dap has yet been made combining ipod or X5(i haven't used one) build quality, ipod file navigation,good dsp(I like iriver dsp though I'm sure many wouldn't and I would probaly like X5 even more-I dont like ipod dsp), easy to use and high quality digital and analogue lineout. I could go on and on, but for me if sound quality is the ultimate aim a digital out is a must. I think this will be so for many other members of this forum when (if?)Xin makes a dac, unless the dac includes a dap
back on topic- I'm still waiting for my 8610's and I received my on ne 5534's yesterday. I had been using and really enjoying the jrc ne 5534's (ca) but the on's (ca) sound even better to me. I don't know if I'm imagining this and I haven't done any a/b testing but this is the best sound I have ever heard.

Reply author: HiFlight
Replied on: 08/02/2005 07:00:52
Message:

I am in agreement with lexnasa regarding the addition of a DAC...with a clean audio output from a quality player, and using good codecs at high bitrates, or non-lossy encoding, adding one more piece of equipment with the necessary interconnect cables probably adds enough degradation to the signal to offset any gains in audio quality made by using the DAC.

Any outside sounds leaking past the headphones adds enough signal to noise degradation to far and again mask the tiny amounts of distortion preset even in an analog output from one of these quality devices. Only in an anechoic chamber would we be able to appreciate the ulimate in sound thru an optical output and DAC.

I think that A-B testing of the iAudio, iPod, and iRiver, using .wav files running from the headphone jacks with no DSP modifications thru the SM would be interesting. My guess is that few people could consistantly tell the difference between them.

I do know that the frequency response of my ears is WAY less than the the limits of the equipment that I am now using.

(But isn't it FUN seaching for the ultimate sound!!!)



Ron Kerlin
Ft Myers, FL, USA
iAudio X5L, iRiver H120,
SM3, Cosmic Headroom, PortaCordaII, ER4S, ER4P, ER6i, EM3, UM2, AH-D6, HD650, Ultrasone 2500, AKG501, B&O A8, KSC-35

Reply author: lexnasa
Replied on: 08/02/2005 07:07:38
Message:

Ron, I agree completely... sorry if my previous post was a bit tetchy, I think the moral is not to post at work when I'm having a bad day! My AD8610s have been shipped, so I'm looking forward to trying them out, at the moment I'm still hooked on AD829-OB. Alan

Reply author: irvin
Replied on: 08/02/2005 10:06:00
Message:

Are you saying this after having heard your source with a dac or are you just speculating?If the latter I suggest you have a listen and decide for yourself.What got me intersted was Xin's post


Posted - 02/28/2005

I went to a headphone meet this past weekend and had a chance to use SuperMacro with more sources including a Rotel DAC. I found a good DAC really makes SuperMacro to shine.

There was a Benchmark DAC there too and AMB made some impressive comments about it.

This changed my mind - I need a good DAC to show SuperMacro's full potentials. I have started this project immediately after the meet. I'll then put this DAC into SuperMacro. Then I'll add a SD/CF slot and finish the long-delayed MP3 project.

After some initial research, the Benchmark DAC ($1000) and RAKK DAC kit ($250 from www.kandkaudio.com) caught my eyes the most. The Benchmark gets very good reviews. The RAKK uses very good parts, but don't know how good is its circuit and PCB design which usually make all the difference.

Although I haven't heard dacs of that quality I agree with Xin's sentiments completely.

Reply author: jamato8
Replied on: 08/02/2005 11:37:49
Message:

I use a Monnica II dac with the optical out from a couple of my Sony portables. This dac represents a bargain and puts out a very high quality sound that I would compare with many home players. It was not meant to be a portable but since it will fit in an Altoid tin with a supply of 6 AA bateries, it does very fine. I would not want to be without a dac, my portable transport and the V3. I built the Monica so it can run off of batteries or walwart but unless you take soldering iron in hand it does not come as a portable. With this setup I get what I feel is as good as most home units if not better.


The V3 and the Monica II asynchronous reclocking dac built into a Altoid tin with a signal lock and on/off led.

John

Reply author: HiFlight
Replied on: 08/02/2005 13:38:13
Message:

John...

Perhaps I am missing the point, but using my CD player or iRiver or iAudio, they all are digital sources that require a DAC. Is the DAC that is built into the iPod, et al, really that bad? Can I really hear the difference between the DAC onboard my iAudio, and an outboard unit? They both convert the digital to the analog signal necessary to feed the SM. How can you measure the audible difference between a good onboard DAC and one of the others? Can I hear the difference? I couldn't when I was ripping files to my minidisc player, using the optical output of my CD player. I guess I have maybe reached the limit of my hearing and wallet just using a good ripping program, avoiding lossy encoding, having a good source, the SM, and decent headphones.



Ron Kerlin
Ft Myers, FL, USA
iAudio X5L, iRiver H120,
SM3, Cosmic Headroom, PortaCordaII, ER4S, ER4P, ER6i, EM3, UM2, AH-D6, HD650, Ultrasone 2500, AKG501, B&O A8, KSC-35

Reply author: jamato8
Replied on: 08/02/2005 16:28:10
Message:

Yes, I can hear a difference.

Today I was listening to the HD650's using both the Woo3 and the V3. I noticed that with the 8610 in CA that I was not getting the drive or focus of the Woo. This is not surprising since the Woo3 can put out some real voltage and has quite a bit of reserve power. So just for fun I tried the 743 in CA. Now this is very close to the Woo in both dynamics and focus. This is the first time I was using the 743 with some higher volumes. The CD was Brothers in Arms. As much as I thought the 8610 was just about it and I have listened to the 743, in this case the V3 is able to give what I consider a very good home amplifier that is very modified, a good run for the money. The Woo3 has a slightly sweeter sound (tubes) but the V3 has a very realistic and convincing sound.

John

Reply author: HiFlight
Replied on: 08/02/2005 17:03:30
Message:

John...
I have always liked the 743, even better in CA. Have you tried the OPA227 in class A yet? It sounds even better than the 743, I think. Very smooth and tube-like. I have been switching back and forth between the 743 and 227. I think there will never be a final choice, as the different recordings and headhones have such an influence on the sound. Both are great sounding. I also really like the 8610-CA, it is staying in one of my SM's for now. Sounds ever so much better than it did in my v.1

Ron Kerlin
Ft Myers, FL, USA
iAudio X5L, iRiver H120,
SM3, Cosmic Headroom, PortaCordaII, ER4S, ER4P, ER6i, EM3, UM2, AH-D6, HD650, Ultrasone 2500, AKG501, B&O A8, KSC-35

Reply author: jamato8
Replied on: 08/02/2005 17:44:35
Message:

I haven't tried the 227 in CA. I will try it later tonight. I was just listening to the 743 in CA and comparing it to my Woo again and I have to say, though they sound a little different, neither is better, just different and that is saying alot for the V3 considering the voltage the Woo can deliver. I compared the 8610 again and I still prefer the 743 which really surprises me as my mind set was that I prefered the 8610.

One variable I forgot. I have the 743 in the Lite version. One buffer and I am getting these fine clean results. I think I may prefer one buffer to 2. I have one V3 with 4 buffers and I still prefer one buffer.

John

Reply author: jayray999
Replied on: 08/03/2005 06:38:00
Message:

There have been 3 quantum jumps in my listening experience.

1. When I heard the SM-3 for the first time.
2. When I used a M-Audio transit with a laptop and Sm-3.
3. When I used the CA mod with 8610.

Each of the above marked a distict phase in my listening life. I must admit that I am eagerly awaiting the XinDAC even though my H140 died and I am bereft of optical output. The M-Audio proved to me that that a good DAC is key.

Innovations that made a significant difference:
1. Switching to OPA604 from NE5534.
2. Switching to AD744 from OPA604.
3. The IMPEDANCE switch on the SM-3. I leave this switch ON for ER-4P.

Innovations that made a small difference
1. Output bypass on 744 versus no output bypass.
2. 4x buffers/3000uF instead of 2x/4000uF.
3. The BASS BOOST and CROSSFEED switches. I leave BASS BOOST ON for my ER-4P and crossfeed OFF.
Innovations that make no difference
1. Using a CARDAS cable versus RADIOSHACK. Cable changes are like snake oil but I love the CARDAS for right angled plus and 6" length.

The amazing thing is that whenever I believe I have heard the best, some innovation comes along and proves me wrong.

Reply author: jayray999
Replied on: 08/03/2005 06:41:40
Message:

Can someone make a systematic comparison between the X5, the H10, the H340 and the latest 4G IPOD? I know people have been saying one thing or another but is the IPOD really so good (or bad)? Basically my H140 died and I am in the market for a new DAP.

Reply author: irvin
Replied on: 08/03/2005 08:29:18
Message:

Jayray sorry to hear about your H140. I can't do a systematic comparison of the DAP's you mention but I do have some thoughts.

Ipod-great to navigate music with scrollwheel, excellent interface with itunes,best selection of accessories,good build quality (beats iriver H140 completely imho). Better lineout quality than iriver imho-but inconvenience of requiring pocketdock (not major but just enough to be irritating),DSP not to my liking but reputedly flat and accurate. Nice album art support in the newer models.

I'm sure Ron can tell you all about the X5- it looks very appealing to me the only reservation being that apparently an external dock is required to access the lineout and it is reputed to fall off quite easily-much more so than the pocketdock, so I suppose it depends how mobile you will be.

As I think you said in an earlier post there is no ideal DAP on the market at present, just one or other form of compromise. If I was in your position I would get something as cheap and small as possible and wait for the next round of DAP's in the hope that someone gets it completely right. BTW have you considered a PCDP with optical out and quite a bit of room for compressed files on a CD-at least as an interim measure, some people at head-fi are even using personal DVD players as portable sources-a bit bulky but with optical out and around 8 gigs on a double sided disk plus the option of watching movies with really good sound on the go.

Reply author: lexnasa
Replied on: 08/03/2005 08:59:49
Message:

Jayray, I have an H140 and I don't use it, I'd be happy to sell it to you, and not at eBay prices, just let me know if you want it.

Reply author: lexnasa
Replied on: 08/03/2005 09:14:19
Message:

I know this is a bit off topic, but I was prompted by Jayray's post to look at all the MP3 players I don't use.

If anyone wants one of these please just email me at alan@at-sea.com, to avoid messing up the forum.

Neuros II 80Gb with modified RF output socket - MP3, Ogg, WMA, WAV, built in FM transmitter
Pogo Ripdrive 80gb - MP3, Ogg, WMA, WAV, Audible
Pogo Ripdrive no hard drive (install yourself - it's easy). It's boxed with instructions, never used.
Rio Karma 20Gb with Vaja leather case - MP3, Ogg, WMA, WAV, FLAC
iPod Photo 60Gb - AIFF, WAV, MP3, AAC, MP4
EZAV Mini Zen - 1Gb - MP3, OGG, WMA, WAV
iRiver H140 - it's currently loaded with Rockbox, but you can reload with the original firmware. Rockbox plays AC3, MPC, WavPack, MP3, Ogg. Normal firmware supports MP3, Ogg, WMA, WAV, ASF.

And if anyone wants a really cool vintage watch, I have too many of those too.

Alan

Reply author: jayray999
Replied on: 08/03/2005 11:18:27
Message:

Alan, I am very interested in your H140. Could you email me at: jayantray@gmail.com? Thank you very much for your thoughtfulness. Jayant

Reply author: HiFlight
Replied on: 08/03/2005 14:32:48
Message:

Regarding the comments about the X5 sub-dock falling off, or being insecure while attached, I fail to see how that applies. My subdock fits securely. There is a mult-pin connector that requires fair pressure to attach and remove. I rarely use the sub, as I use the larger standard dock, and can thus leave the charging cord, usb cord, and line-out cord attached permanently. Although the standard dock is an option, the cost is very low, and well worth the convenience. I do find that navigating menus and buttons is more intuitive on the X5 than on the H120, with the color display being more readible.

The only drawback to the smaller sub-dock is that it cannot be used with the factory leather case. I am not sure that there is really any difference in the line-out and the headphone jack output. All volume settings and dsp settings are reflected thru both. That was also the case with the iRiver H120 as well.

I think maybe some of the DAP manufacturers have a different idea of what "line-out" means than the traditional definition that we are used to.

I do plan to keep both units. The iRiver still has some features that others lack. My guess is that progress in this type of product will be logrithmic, similar to progress in computer features and technology. Anything purchased now will be overshadowed by newer versions and new models with larger drives, more features, more bells and whistles appearing almost weekly.



Ron Kerlin
Ft Myers, FL, USA
iAudio X5L, iRiver H120,
SM3, Cosmic Headroom, PortaCordaII, ER4S, ER4P, ER6i, EM3, UM2, AH-D6, HD650, Ultrasone 2500, AKG501, B&O A8, KSC-35

Reply author: rblanco
Replied on: 08/04/2005 19:49:31
Message:

quote:

---

Originally posted by jamato8

Oh, and the bass with the 8610 CA. I know I have mentioned it before but it is one of the best I have heard.

---

Reply author: rblanco
Replied on: 08/04/2005 19:53:56
Message:

Forgot to ask is there a difference in sound between the AD8610's on a Class-A Adapter,
and the AD8610 already biased to class-A, in the SMv3?????

Thanks!

Reply author: HiFlight
Replied on: 08/04/2005 20:27:57
Message:

rblanco...

The only way that the AD8610 can be biased Class-A in the SM3 is by using the adapter.

The bass is tight, accurate, and well balanced, but I don't consider it as heavy or boomy. Overall, a very nice sounding opamp. Better biased Class-A in the SM3 than it was in the SM1. Seemed a bit bright then, now it sounds more balanced overall.

Ron Kerlin
Ft Myers, FL, USA
iAudio X5L, iRiver H120,
SM3, Cosmic Headroom, PortaCordaII, ER4S, ER4P, ER6i, EM3, UM2, AH-D6, HD650, Ultrasone 2500, AKG501, B&O A8, KSC-35

Reply author: rblanco
Replied on: 08/05/2005 11:34:48
Message:

quote:

---

Originally posted by HiFlight

The only way that the AD8610 can be biased Class-A in the SM3 is by using the adapter.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by HiFlight

The bass is tight, accurate, and well balanced, but I don't consider it as heavy or boomy. Overall, a very nice sounding opamp. Better biased Class-A in the SM3 than it was in the SM1. Seemed a bit bright then, now it sounds more balanced overall.

---

Reply author: HiFlight
Replied on: 08/05/2005 14:31:33
Message:

rblanco...

You cannot mount the AD8610 onto the standard Class-A adapter, as the AD8610 chip is a smaller size, (soic). It needs it's own special adapter which is what is provided by Dr Xin with the AD8610 is ordered for Class-A bias.

I like the bass on the AD8610-CA better than OPA627 personally, I think it is more accurate, but they do both sound good. I think it will be a personal choice more than anything else. I am VERY pleased overall with the sound of the AD8610 when biased class-A.

The OPA604-CA also has very deep fundemental bass. Not boomy, but very deep and real. You might wish to give that a try also. The bypassed AD829 has good bass as well. So much is individual taste and equipment synergy that you just about have to give most of them a try and make your own call. Besides, it's FUN!

Ron Kerlin
Ft Myers, FL, USA
iAudio X5L, iRiver H120,
SM3, Cosmic Headroom, PortaCordaII, ER4S, ER4P, ER6i, EM3, UM2, AH-D6, HD650, Ultrasone 2500, AKG501, B&O A8, KSC-35

Reply author: rblanco
Replied on: 08/07/2005 20:09:46
Message:

Has anybody tried the following ...

AD8610 opamp mounted on a browndog soic to dip adapter,
installed on a Xin "Any Opamp to Class A" adapter?

Will the above configuration fit inside the SMv3?

Is there a difference in sound between the AD8610 opamp
mounted on a browndog soic to dip adapter on a Xin
"Any Opamp to Class A" adapter" and the "AD8610-CA module?"

Thanks.

Reply author: jamato8
Replied on: 08/07/2005 23:02:55
Message:

I have used it this way and it sounds good. I just got some LT chips and will be giving them a listen. So many opamps and soo little time.

John

Reply author: jamato8
Replied on: 08/08/2005 15:50:38
Message:

I have the LT1115 installed in class A and this to is a special opamp. Very, very detailed. I can hear the hum of the tape machine as it records on some of the music I listen to. I have not heard this before but I can also hear other details that are not normally heard with other opamps. I can hear the clack of the keys on a clarenet much clearer and the human voice has a very nice clean sound without the chestiness that can intrude in the spoken word.

The LT1115 also seems on the slightly cool side but that is fine with me. The sound is clean and well articulated. Bass has a nice natural presentation, solid and tuneful.

John

Reply author: HiFlight
Replied on: 08/08/2005 17:26:37
Message:

John...

That sounds like an opamp that I would like to try. Where did you locate it? TI? ON? AD?

btw, how did you like the opa227-CA?

Thanks..

Ron Kerlin
Ft Myers, FL, USA
iAudio X5L, iRiver H120,
SM3, Cosmic Headroom, PortaCordaII, ER4S, ER4P, ER6i, EM3, UM2, AH-D6, HD650, Ultrasone 2500, AKG501, B&O A8, KSC-35

Reply author: HiFlight
Replied on: 08/08/2005 17:58:22
Message:

John...

Nevermind the location...I found them. Also ordered the LT1028. Specs and waveforms looked good...be interesting to see how it sounds, if there is a family resemblance to the LT1115.

Ron Kerlin
Ft Myers, FL, USA
iAudio X5L, iRiver H120,
SM3, Cosmic Headroom, PortaCordaII, ER4S, ER4P, ER6i, EM3, UM2, AH-D6, HD650, Ultrasone 2500, AKG501, B&O A8, KSC-35

Reply author: jamato8
Replied on: 08/08/2005 18:31:41
Message:

I have the 228 but I have not tried them. It looks like the LT opamps are pretty good.

I am listening to "Famous Blue Raincoat" and it sounds very different. Very concise and controled. This opamp, the LT1115 has an iron fist control over the music. The bass impact on the second cut is like a 600 watt solid state amp.

John

Reply author: HiFlight
Replied on: 08/08/2005 19:40:35
Message:

John...

How does that opamp compare to the AD8610-CA....I think that sounds very good. It also seems to well-define the sound.

Ron Kerlin
Ft Myers, FL, USA
iAudio X5L, iRiver H120,
SM3, Cosmic Headroom, PortaCordaII, ER4S, ER4P, ER6i, EM3, UM2, AH-D6, HD650, Ultrasone 2500, AKG501, B&O A8, KSC-35

Reply author: jamato8
Replied on: 08/08/2005 22:17:57
Message:

I think the AD8610 CA sounds very nice but I found that the 227 in CA sounded better to my ears. The 227 has better imaging.. Now the LT1115. I know that after a while saying something is "WOW", gets old can loose its impact and validity. But the LT1115 really is in a league of its own. You have to hear it to believe it. It is like the V3 is a totally different amp with a different architecture. The depth and imaging . . . well you have to try it.

John

Reply author: kithng
Replied on: 08/09/2005 06:24:29
Message:

where can I order LT1115 ??

thanks

Reply author: guido
Replied on: 08/09/2005 06:43:41
Message:

just ordered some free LT1115 from http://www.linear.com/pc/productDetail.do?navId=H0,C1,C1154,C1009,C1026,P1293

High end Audio; Norh Marble 9.0s, Kratos subs, QDS valve CD player, Black Widow Valve pre, Marchand active Xover, Audio Research D125, ASL Wave 8s and Norh LeAmps. [ iPodMini with ER4P\S - HD650 and SM3] see www.delgi.com and www.olympicguns.com

Reply author: shan
Replied on: 08/09/2005 09:16:06
Message:

Thanks for the info jamato,I've ordered LT1115 & LT1028
Have you tried LT1028?

Reply author: jamato8
Replied on: 08/09/2005 11:33:49
Message:

I haven't tried the LT1028 yet. I am enjoying the LT1115 right now. So many opamps, so little time. In looking around at other amps, what amp can perform so many changes? I have found none.

I am listening to Dwight Yoakam "blame the vain", and the sound is amazing. There is a very different dynamic impact from what I have been hearing.


John

Reply author: jhlbbs
Replied on: 08/09/2005 12:22:04
Message:

Do these LT opamps go in straigth, in ob or ca sockets ?

Reply author: jamato8
Replied on: 08/09/2005 13:07:25
Message:

I am using them in CA.

John

Reply author: bernard
Replied on: 08/09/2005 19:41:35
Message:

www.linear.com shows two versions of the PDIP LT1028
LT1028ACN8
LT1028CN8
What's the difference and which one should I order to try out on the SM3?

Reply author: jamato8
Replied on: 08/09/2005 21:49:17
Message:

You would have to go into their spec sheet. I would imagine one has a greater temperature range. I have them both but I have not tried the 1028 at this time as I am enjoying the 1115 sooooo much.

John

Reply author: Xin
Replied on: 08/10/2005 00:08:13
Message:

Wow, my moving took only a week, but this thread went crazy!

SM3 has all the tricks to ensure all opamps to work well. Meanwhile its AAA batteries can power all opamps that 9V batteries cannot.

Reply author: bernard
Replied on: 08/10/2005 04:38:27
Message:

Xin, so you left Davis? Which city did you move to?

Reply author: Xin
Replied on: 08/10/2005 13:09:38
Message:

Corvallis, Oregon. I love this new place and wish I have done it long time ago. Nice weather, nice stores, nice people, nice price on everything including housing and no sales tax!. Compared to it, Davis is nothing: VERY hot, NO stores and VERY expensive. In Davis, $1000 for a 2-bedroom apartment and I also paid $200 for a dog-house office. Here a 3-bedroom is only $650 and I use one roomy bedroom for office. The weather is so nice, I can work much more time and be much more productive. Be prepared to see much more new things from me soon.

Reply author: HiFlight
Replied on: 08/10/2005 16:25:05
Message:

Dr Xin...

May your new home bring you good fortune, happiness and prosperity!!!
I know it is difficult to uproot, find a new location, and get everything moved, but it sounds as though it was a good choice!



Ron Kerlin
Ft Myers, FL, USA
iAudio X5L, iRiver H120,
SM3, Cosmic Headroom, PortaCordaII, ER4S, ER4P, ER6i, EM3, UM2, AH-D6, HD650, Ultrasone 2500, AKG501, B&O A8, KSC-35

Reply author: zxkaw
Replied on: 08/11/2005 08:38:06
Message:

Xin congradulations on your new home in Oregon glad it is nicer for you than Davis. It has to be much nicer than here in Ohio. Ohio is the complete opposite of what you described of Oregon. No nice scenery here and the people ar'nt very friendly. Enjoy your new home you deserve it you are a nice man. -Rick

Reply author: Xin
Replied on: 08/11/2005 11:50:41
Message:

Thank you guys, you make all my efforts worth it. Most Davis people are nice, just there are quite a population and those in the city hall are weird.

Reply author: JMcMasterJ
Replied on: 08/11/2005 17:05:04
Message:

LT1115 in CA is amazing

Reply author: Wombat_VC
Replied on: 08/12/2005 01:32:20
Message:

quote:

---

Originally posted by JMcMasterJ

LT1115 in CA is amazing

---

Reply author: shan
Replied on: 08/12/2005 10:33:51
Message:

Im listening to LT1028,1028 is smoother than 1115,
both of them sound so crystal clear,even better than 5534OB
which is incredible..because I thought 5534OB is the most transparent before,I was wrong.
but 1028 sounds a bit bright now...hope this will be solved after break-in.

Reply author: jamato8
Replied on: 08/12/2005 11:18:00
Message:

Are you using the 28 in CA or OB? I have the 1115 in CA and the sound is very smooth and enjoyable but now I will have to try the 1028 in CA.

Johnn

Reply author: Xin
Replied on: 08/12/2005 12:21:40
Message:

Both 1028 and 1115 have super low noise level, even lower than AD797, much lower than NE5534. The 1028's noise is only 1.0nVrtHz at 10Hz, incredible, most opamps (except 5534) have significantly higher noise at low frequency even though they have very good noise specs at 1KHz or higher. Seems these are good choices for E5C etc.

A brief look at the datasheet, seems it can do OB too, as its pin 5 is for (over) compensation.

When the sound quality reaches such level, it is very hard to describe the difference. All you can tell is which sounds better (warmer, cleaner etc.) to you or which one you like better. You can only feel it, not analyze it.

Reply author: jamato8
Replied on: 08/12/2005 14:58:13
Message:

quote:

---

You can only feel it, not analyze it.

---

Reply author: shan
Replied on: 08/12/2005 17:27:30
Message:

I plugged them in to sm3 directly.
with CA the sound is drier & darker so I didn't use it.
The SMD resistors in my CA adaptors are cheap,I found them inside an old pc keyboard

The high of 1115 is a bit aggressive to my ears,
I am a 1028 fan now :),the sound is incredibly transparent.

Reply author: bernard
Replied on: 08/12/2005 22:29:04
Message:

quote:

---

Originally posted by shan

I plugged them in to sm3 directly.
with CA the sound is drier & darker so I didn't use it.
The SMD resistors in my CA adaptors are cheap,I found them inside an old pc keyboard

The high of 1115 is a bit aggressive to my ears,
I am a 1028 fan now :),the sound is incredibly transparent.

---

Reply author: jamato8
Replied on: 08/13/2005 05:59:47
Message:

I don't get the aggressiveness with the 1115 in what I am hearing but that may the difference between setups and ears. I was listening to my Woo3, which has great sound, but now I am back to just the V3 again. The 1115 in CA sounds great with jazz. The sax comes through very clean and dynamic.

John

Reply author: StevieDvd
Replied on: 08/13/2005 08:41:29
Message:

How much are the 1028 & 1115 and anyone know of UK sellers of them.

Reply author: jhlbbs
Replied on: 08/13/2005 09:30:22
Message:

You just follow the link a couple of pages back and order free samples from there

Reply author: datawolf
Replied on: 08/13/2005 11:48:54
Message:

I read alot of gems of observations from several contributors but the headphones used in making them is rarely mentioned.
I have been using ER4Ps with the SM3 impedance on and the gain on with AD8290 in CA mode and have yet to hear anything to rival it.
However, I just recieved my UE10 pros and burnt them in for 48 hrs (is that enough?) and I wondered if anyone has any recommendations as to opamp choice.
The AD829 in CA produces such a strong bass you feel the slap of the bass drum right in the middle of you brain like a whip snap. It's too much. Bass lines are absolutely perfectly defined but the pressure levels are rediculous and there's a distinct lack of 'edge' on the mid registers giving an overall muffled effect like it's still in its orginal shrink wrap (a covering that's practically transparent but there all the same). Tried the AD8610 in CA but it really doesn't have the sound stage and is rather 'dry' in comparison to the AD829-CA. I'm running the AD829 in OB mode now which presents a much more cohehrent picture but the bass, while not punching the living daylights out of me now is a little on the 'loose' side. Perhaps this is a 'psychoacoustic' effect after have auditioned the AD829-CA (killer mode). Anyway, looking forward to trying the LT1115s which look like they're from the same neck of the woods as the AD829 in terms of spec, perhaps they'll tame the bass of the UEs...
By the way, I run the UEs with impedance and gain off otherwise there's a marked loss of brightness and dynamics... the sound lacks life.

Roni

AppleLossless > iPhoto > PocketDock > Cardas > SM3 > UE10pro

Reply author: jamato8
Replied on: 08/13/2005 14:17:52
Message:

I use the HD650's and the Portapros when I listen and from time to time the UM2's.

What you might try is a different resistor for the CA on the opamp. Maybe go up to 4K for less bias. You would be biasing more into the class A B but with some of the benifit. It might be worth a try to experiement.

John

Reply author: datawolf
Replied on: 08/13/2005 14:34:26
Message:

OK...
out of curiosity, what is the resistance in the adaptors from Xin?

Roni

AppleLossless > iPhoto > PocketDock > Cardas > SM3 > UE10pro

Reply author: shan
Replied on: 08/14/2005 07:28:56
Message:

After 3 days break-in,now the brightness of 1028 has gone.
With er4b,the sound is so perfect to me,almost can't find any impurities,
harps,tambourines,triangles & bells sound like the shining stars at night,
the sound is so pure,feel like I am in music heaven :D

Reply author: datawolf
Replied on: 08/14/2005 07:37:52
Message:

How do the 1028s compare to the 829s in CA?
Are you running the 1028 straight with no adapters?

Roni

AppleLossless > iPhoto > PocketDock > Cardas > SM3 > UE10pro

Reply author: datawolf
Replied on: 08/14/2005 08:09:04
Message:

Well, this an education...
Got up this morning and plugged in straight away.
The 829-OB sounded distinctly better, even more coherent soundscape.
The upper bass still a bit 'loose'.
Decided to go nuts and plugged the 829s back to CA mode fearing for my health and what the leathal bass would do to it.

Unbelievable...
something must have 'burnt' in
(i left it all playing last night, bar the UEs, i use a throw away pair of iPod buds for opamp burn in process)

Now the whole setup sings like Neve digital desk.
Astonishing clarity and coherence with a sound stage that really disappears into the distance.
Everything is delivered effortlessy.
Its almost like you can touch the sounds or they touch you... there's nothing in between.
The bass register has dropped back into the mix to exactly where it should be and is perfectly defined, not waffle, awesome.

With the ER4Ps (impededance+gain on) with the same 829-CAs its like seeing a perfect picture and a little imagination makes it real.
With the UE10s... its simply real, you're there.
Imagine the range of the ER4Ps is extended all the way down and out.

Then imagine not having to imagine...zen stuff huh!

I'm not sure I'll ever be able to take these things out of my head.
maybe they do an implant version...
resistance is futile...
help!

Roni

AppleLossless > iPhoto > PocketDock > Cardas > SM3 > UE10pro

Reply author: shan
Replied on: 08/14/2005 08:25:17
Message:

I use 1028s without CA adaptors

IMO...829OB,627s,797s 744s 604s & most ops all of them are in the same world.
some better than others.the differences aren't very big.
Most of them have their "own styles",these sometimes make the sound become unnatural...(which I don't like)

5534OB & 1028s are different animal when compared to other ops,both of them are very high fidelity.
the high of 1028 is so beautiful,even more refine than 5534OB,no harshness,
the sound is very delicate & expressive.

Linear claims the output of 1028 is distortion free...
when I use CA,dynamic is better,but the sound become drier & darker.
so I think no CA adaptor is needed...

Reply author: lexnasa
Replied on: 08/14/2005 09:12:08
Message:

Yay for AD829! I have tried all the recent suggestions, LT1115, AD8610, and I've had a pair of LT1028s from way back... I still prefer AD829. AD829-CA is probably more realistic, especially with soundstage, but for me AD829-OB is more seductive - I love the feeling of complete immersion. The tonal balance may give some the impression that high frequencies are rolled off, but they're all there. Tonal colour is almost perfect. The more HF you have, the less easy it is to distinguish tonal colour amongst instruments, so although it might be a hi-fi aspiration, it's an un-musical one. Of course there are limits, and I'm not suggesting we put socks over our headphones to improve tonal colour... or am I? Alan

Reply author: Robert Jew
Replied on: 08/14/2005 15:52:02
Message:

Datawolf:

Hearing is also different during different times of the day. I notice with my own pair (of ears) that they are much more sensitive to higher frequencies in the morning than at night. I am much more sensitive to Bass at night than the morning.

I was reminded of this the other night when I was doing a little buffer/opamp rolling with my new SM3CA that the X2 stacked buffers gave me way too much Bass, but in the morning single buffers seemed not enough and the stacked version went back in.

Burn-in for opamps seem to take weeks to fully burn and reach a stable condition. I would say the same for your UE10's. My Sensaphonics took months and many hours.

Reply author: Jon L
Replied on: 08/14/2005 17:17:35
Message:

quote:

---

Originally posted by datawolf

Well, this an education...
Got up this morning and plugged in straight away.
The 829-OB sounded distinctly better, even more coherent soundscape.
The upper bass still a bit 'loose'.
Decided to go nuts and plugged the 829s back to CA mode fearing for my health and what the leathal bass would do to it.

Unbelievable...
something must have 'burnt' in
(i left it all playing last night, bar the UEs, i use a throw away pair of iPod buds for opamp burn in process)

Now the whole setup sings like Neve digital desk.
Astonishing clarity and coherence with a sound stage that really disappears into the distance.
Everything is delivered effortlessy.
Its almost like you can touch the sounds or they touch you... there's nothing in between.
The bass register has dropped back into the mix to exactly where it should be and is perfectly defined, not waffle, awesome.

With the ER4Ps (impededance+gain on) with the same 829-CAs its like seeing a perfect picture and a little imagination makes it real.
With the UE10s... its simply real, you're there.
Imagine the range of the ER4Ps is extended all the way down and out.

Then imagine not having to imagine...zen stuff huh!

I'm not sure I'll ever be able to take these things out of my head.
maybe they do an implant version...
resistance is futile...
help!

Roni

AppleLossless > iPhoto > PocketDock > Cardas > SM3 > UE10pro

---

Reply author: datawolf
Replied on: 08/14/2005 18:27:44
Message:

i think it was the phrase 'you only cry once' that tipped the scales and i ordered them... i just had to find out...

my delusions of granduer have now focused on the fabled 'orpheus'... if only to hear them.. and know...

Roni

AppleLossless > iPhoto > PocketDock > Cardas > SM3 > UE10pro

Reply author: datawolf
Replied on: 08/14/2005 18:32:59
Message:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Robert Jew

Datawolf:

Hearing is also different during different times of the day. I notice with my own pair (of ears) that they are much more sensitive to higher frequencies in the morning than at night. I am much more sensitive to Bass at night than the morning.

I was reminded of this the other night when I was doing a little buffer/opamp rolling with my new SM3CA that the X2 stacked buffers gave me way too much Bass, but in the morning single buffers seemed not enough and the stacked version went back in.

Burn-in for opamps seem to take weeks to fully burn and reach a stable condition. I would say the same for your UE10's. My Sensaphonics took months and many hours.

---

Reply author: dan_Sweden
Replied on: 08/17/2005 14:22:12
Message:

Hi Xin, and all professionals.

Just bought a Old MCI mixingconsole with about 25psc 5534 per channel.
40 channels means 1000 psc,,,!!!

So now when replacing them all,,,,
First, Do I really need to ?, they are all from about 1982, running day and night, but still functionable, I hope.

Secondly,,,,,,,the difference in price are huge in that quantity.
Have found FSC,0.45- 0.8 dollar each,,,and then philips or TI.
can I buy the FSC from china without beeing worried they are a cheap copys, and not up to standard ?

I have learned AP is garanted max noiselevel,,,,but then I read about alot of ather combinations,,,,,No,,XX etc, what to choose ?
They are just regular 8 pinchips.

Are there any replacementchip that is better in this allready 5534 circuit ?

Please help,,,,,,,,,,,,,

Kindly, Dan

Reply author: gchang
Replied on: 08/17/2005 15:41:00
Message:

You would do better to replace the old capacitors in the console before changing the amps - this will offer you the greatest improvement in sound. Once the caps are changed, then you might be able to hear the subtly improvements that different opamps will provide....

Reply author: lexnasa
Replied on: 08/17/2005 20:38:19
Message:

I agree completely - change the capacitors, also capacitors in the power supply, then try some ON Semi NE5534s. Alan

Reply author: Xin
Replied on: 08/18/2005 02:49:03
Message:

Just tried LT1028 and 1115. Both have exceptional highs, nothing else has such kind crystal highs and blasting dynamics, which reminds me the first time I heard the ER4S. While such kind of sound will be loved by senior audiophiles who appreciate highs more than lows and usually have some (high-freq) hearing loss after long-time of ear abusing, it will be thought as too bright and cold by most people. Class-A does not make any difference to them. If AD8610 w/o class-A is too bright, these are definitely more. For those who are seeking heart-breaking and tear-dropping effect of a live concert like "Butterfly Lovers" voilin concerto, these are the tickets.

This proves again, how important it is for an amp to be able to swap opamps, because they do sound very differently. Like gchang said in the other post, two SM3s are good - one for good and relaxing sound (I'd use NE5534-CA or AD8610-CA) and one for heart-touching concerts (I'd use NE5534-OB or LT1115/1028). Also keep one charged while using the other. If I must choose one, I'll get the former if I listen to music mostly during work as background sound or the latter if I listen to serious concert recodings and want as much details as possible.

Reply author: dan_Sweden
Replied on: 08/18/2005 03:33:50
Message:

OK, first change the caps.

well only in the signal chain?,or allso the pair to +-18v on each.?
1000 psc gets easily 3000 psc then !

What about FSC, still as good as TI ? are there cheap copys on the market ?

I have planned to buy NE5534AP but told above to get " ON Semi NE5534s " , Is that an 8 pin, regular size ? and is "s" the same or better than "AP"

Allan, Xin, all pros,,,,,,thanks for your input

Reg, Dan.

Reply author: shan
Replied on: 08/18/2005 05:22:30
Message:

After 5 days break-in
the sound of 1028 has changed....It's a bit darker than the oringinal sound now.
1028 is smoother & darker than 5534OB,5534OB is more open & detailed.
I've put my 5534OB back into sm3

Reply author: lexnasa
Replied on: 08/18/2005 05:30:10
Message:

Dan

NE5534AN from ON Semi, also from previous posts Xin rates the JRC 5534D very highly too. If you have an 80s desk it should be the larger size chip, with 8 pins, now referred to as PDIP.

Alan

Reply author: shan
Replied on: 08/18/2005 06:56:10
Message:

Ooops...just tried NE5534CA (connected 6,7pin with DALE resistor)
sound is open,smooth,natural & beautiful now
very relax,this is what I am searching for....nice..

Reply author: dan_Sweden
Replied on: 08/18/2005 06:59:58
Message:

Alan Think I got it .

I shall get the 5534, from ON semi,
with the endmark, ap , where "p" have the meaning PDIP
"n" is then just a new size, right !?

I just got an offer from China, buying theese sweeties.
Still I dont know if there are copys out there wich means
I can be cheated,,,,,China are good ! but who knows, anyone ?

What about the caps,,,,,all or enogh with the signal chain ?

Allan,,I just let you know I may perhaps produce the music you are
so much enjoying,,,

MANY thanks your respond ALAN !,,,still just some thought left,,you know ?

With a wide spectrum

Dan

Reply author: Xin
Replied on: 08/18/2005 12:12:56
Message:

quote:

---

Originally posted by shan

Ooops...just tried NE5534CA (connected 6,7pin with DALE resistor)
sound is open,smooth,natural & beautiful now
very relax,this is what I am searching for....nice..

---

Reply author: dan_Sweden
Replied on: 08/18/2005 15:34:02
Message:

Just wonder why xin , ignore my mail
and just continous to make an orgie how good
some op amps are,,,,,

Reply author: StevieDvd
Replied on: 08/18/2005 16:05:04
Message:

Well basically because this site is Xin's and this particular thread is about trying out different opamps in the Supermacro v3 (SM3).

You have just popped in for a question on some other equipment which does not really come under the 'support' topic of the SM3.

Some have responded to you but I don't feel Xin 'must' respond.

That's just my opinion of course. No offence intended.

Reply author: Xin
Replied on: 08/18/2005 20:41:11
Message:

Dan, I have no experience with the console.

That said, why NE5534 is so widely used? Because it is just fast enough for audio and it does not require very carefull design to be stable, not just they are cheap. If you replace it with faster ones, instability is a concern. It also has very small phase shift, a good thing to audio image and when many of them are used in many stages.

Swapping a newer/better/faster opamp into an old console/amp, does not necessaorily guarrantee better sound, it depends on the specific (PCB) design. If the new opamp oscillate in it, it'll sound horrible.

Reply author: zixor
Replied on: 08/18/2005 23:26:56
Message:

Hi

Just received my SM v.3 amp (w/switches) couple days ago and I am very amazed by the sound quality it produces.
In regards to opamp and adapters I have couple of questions that I would like to ask.

1. I have read a post by Dr. Xin that for opamp AD744 it is preferable to use the Output bypass instead of the class A. Is there a specific reason for this? Even though my amp and opamps are no where near the optimum burnin stage, I was just experimenting with couple of the opamps that I have received. I found that for opamp AD744 I was getting more fuller sound due to the increase in the amount of bass when using the class A bias adapter instead of the output bypass. Also, the sound seemed more warmer. The warmer sound was more apparent when comparing to AD8610CA.
2. This question is just making sure that I'm doing things correctly. When plugging the AD744 opamp into the output bypass adapter, is it correct to not plug pin 5 into the adapter? As for the class-a adapter, I'm suppose to plug all the pins in the place.. correct?

Thanks.

JJ
.wav files -> Apple Ipod Mini -> Pocketdock -> RnB Sky Blue mini v.2 ->Supermacro v.3 (w/switches, AD744 w/class a bias adapter) -> Er-4p

Reply author: Xin
Replied on: 08/18/2005 23:54:53
Message:

JJ,

AD744's strength is its super clarity, OB makes it even more that way. Therefore I recommend OB instead of CA for those who like that kind of sound. CA usually makes sound warmer and more pleasant, while OB makes sound more clear. So what you got was to be expected.

After CA, I generally prefer CA over OB, even though OB is theoratically better and does not drain extra current.

With OB sockets, you don't plug in pin 6 (not 5), the second one from up right.

Reply author: dan_Sweden
Replied on: 08/19/2005 01:26:30
Message:

Stevie Dvd, I´ve got it.

So finally thank you all guys
Stevie,Alan, Xin,,,,,
Seems I have to learn about supermacro,,,,,,

To give in return I want you to put the eye on the op amp called
JE-990, Producer Deane Jensen, Jensen transporfers,North Hollywood,Ca 91601 USA. where they have greatly improved the data compared to NE
5534,Ha2625,Lm318,,,

All take care !

Dan

Reply author: Xin
Replied on: 08/19/2005 11:24:51
Message:

I'm listening to OPA227-CA right now. I don't remember why I ignored this opamp lately. I actually used it in the last batch of SM1s and started SM3 with them, but somehow I used NE5534 instead in production. Thank Ron for reminding us about it. This thing in CA is a killer. Smoother, warmer, airier and liquider than NE5534-CA and AD8610-CA, very good image depth, very well defined bass, no any harsh in highs.

Reply author: jamato8
Replied on: 08/19/2005 21:29:24
Message:

I have had the opa227 for some time now but I don't remember using it and if I did it was no in CA. I just put a pair in in CA. All I can say is WOW! The excitement never ends! Crystal clear highs and extremely open.

John

Reply author: Xin
Replied on: 08/19/2005 21:35:33
Message:

I've been listening between OPA227-CA, NE5534-CA and AD8610-CA with HD-580, they all sound very good with 227 more milky and laid back, 5534 more open and transparent and 8610 more lively and harmonic. 8610 sounded too bassy with PX-100, but now ideal with HD580.

Reply author: rblanco
Replied on: 08/21/2005 12:21:00
Message:

Xin, I would like to purchase your opamp socket adapters that
allows you to "Class-A Bias" any opamp.

You used to sell it on your website, but I don't see the listing
on your website anymore. Are you still selling it? I would like
to Class-A Bias some of my OPA227 opamps.

Thanks!

Ruben

Reply author: tonyli3
Replied on: 08/22/2005 07:15:00
Message:

For anyone using the Sony Sa5000 headphones with the sm3 give the 227's a shot in classA as they sound brilliant,about the same detail level as the 627 but a slightly fuller almost creamy effect,the 5000's being very fast,dynamic and detailed fill out a lot using these opamps without losing the ability to excite.

Reply author: jamato8
Replied on: 08/22/2005 17:10:53
Message:

I have been listening to the NE5534 in CAOB on and off today. Earlier on a hike while the hike was enjoyable the sound had become so-so. After all these years of building my own equipment, modifying and just listening to new equipment I still don't have it through my head that much of what is electrical goes up and down in sound until it settles in. Often I have noticed that the sound I get when I first listen to an item is close to what it will end up like though much of the time the sound will be smoother and more open but the general character will raise its head. Now after letting the amp play while I wasn't listening and just burning in the opamp and the adapter I made up the sound has opened up really, really nice. I would imagine it has some distance to go yet but I must remind myself to let time take its course with break-in.

I am listening to Vivaldi "the four season" on orginal instruments, which aren't always my favorite but the harmonic richness and "hall" sound is a real treat.

I agree the 227 in CA is very good. So many choices.

John

Reply author: Robert Jew
Replied on: 08/22/2005 18:58:39
Message:

Hate to sound like an old saw, but in my setup, the 627BP is just the most transparent, accurate, detailed and balanced opamps I have tried in a SM3CA; even more so than the AP version which seems to be just a little brighter and less transparent.

Also tried them against the 797's and NE5534 they just don't have the magic for me as 627's. I have a feeling its probably because they have travelled to Mexico and back and something of that country rubbed off. Lila Downs is especially hot with these opamps. Muy picante!

Reply author: Xin
Replied on: 08/27/2005 01:52:55
Message:

Bob, try ON Semi SA5534AN under OBCA and the pre-power comb, it sounds too perfect to be true, at least with my HD-580. You feel nothing between your face and the sound stage. Both treble and bass are refined to be very real. This discovery is a big one. Other manufactures will benefit from this, but thye'll have to do other things right too to make this happen.

I think we have done this amp rolling. Thank you all, and I wish everybody had fun!

I'm going to close this thread soon as it has gone way too long and we've found what we've been looking for. If you'll find an opmap that's better than On Semi SA5534-OBCA, then please start a new thread.

I would like to summarize some key moments in this super long thread:

1) I selected NE5534 as default in SM3.
2) ZC started this great thread and the opamp fun started rolling.
3) Shan found the On Semi 5534, in three versions: SA, NE and SE.
4) Ron found the AD744, which drew my attention to output bypass and we found, besides AD744, AD829 and, especially, 5534 could do the trick. I knew I selected 5534 as SM3's default for a good reason, but not so clear until this discovery.
5) Class-A(CA), makes almost all opamps sound better.
6) Class-A and output bypass(OBCA), works for AD744 and 5534 only.
7) Goto2030 found On Semi SA5534 sounds perfect under OBCA. Next to it is On Semi NE5534, slightly darker than SA.

Reply author: Robert Jew
Replied on: 09/01/2005 11:32:32
Message:

Excellent thread, extremely informative and edgy even if I didn't understand all the technical stuff!

Reply author: guido
Replied on: 09/02/2005 04:55:56
Message:

Just trying out the TI SA5534 in OBCA compared to the JRC5534...definitely an improvement...
I do not have the ON SA5534 yet so I cannot do a comparison between ON and TI....anyone else try this?

TI sent me samples in 4 days to South Africa by courier..unbelievable!!

ON charges $20 for shipping unfortunately..

AD are also very good and use couriers to ship internationally free of charge.

High end Audio; Norh Marble 9.0s, Kratos subs, QDS valve CD player, Black Widow Valve pre, Marchand active Xover, Audio Research D125, ASL Wave 8s and Norh LeAmps. [ iPodMini with ER4P\S - HD650 and SM3] see www.delgi.com and www.olympicguns.com

Reply author: shan
Replied on: 09/05/2005 04:42:58
Message:

After another opamp trial,
I've put ON NE5534OB(yes OB only) back into sm3 with the "open output loop" tweak....

Reply author: guido
Replied on: 09/05/2005 08:51:24
Message:

by open output loop you mean no output bypass?


High end Audio; Norh Marble 9.0s, Kratos subs, QDS valve CD player, Black Widow Valve pre, Marchand active Xover, Audio Research D125, ASL Wave 8s and Norh LeAmps. [ iPodMini with ER4P\S - HD650 and SM3] see www.delgi.com and www.olympicguns.com

Reply author: shan
Replied on: 09/05/2005 09:47:45
Message:

no,
it's 5534 output bypass with open output loop

Reply author: guido
Replied on: 09/05/2005 12:49:50
Message:

sorry Shan...what is open output loop?

High end Audio; Norh Marble 9.0s, Kratos subs, QDS valve CD player, Black Widow Valve pre, Marchand active Xover, Audio Research D125, ASL Wave 8s and Norh LeAmps. [ iPodMini with ER4P\S - HD650 and SM3] see www.delgi.com and www.olympicguns.com

Reply author: jamato8
Replied on: 09/05/2005 18:56:21
Message:

Page down and you will find instructions from Xin on this.

John

http://www.xintechs.com/talk/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1235&whichpage=3

Xin's Cool Talk : http://www.fixup.net/talk/